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Should I "clear" my house?

Definitions of Ensconced on the Web:

•A settler is a person who has migrated to an area and established permanent residence there, often to colonize the area. Settlers are generally people who take up residence on land and cultivate it, as opposed to nomads. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensconced

•Placed in a secure environment; Settled comfortably
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ensconced

THe entire home/ area are ensconcment not just a room.

as it pertains to this topic.............

On this subject the information as you have protrayed it in my opinion is dishonest,while at first it apeared that you just didnt understand what was said in the article if your intention is to state that the intruder is a hunter( the intuder remains in the same scense as the entry team except he is a hunter with no idea where he is, what is behind what, and where the hunted is), its still apples to oranges. Mout training has evolved in the last 25 years.
I maintain that he ensconced individual is the HUNTED and remains the HUNTED with the advantage. Being that the home is prepared the entire home remains the position of advantage for the pourpose of the BITN scenario.
What you did was apply two different paradigm's to try and make it apear that only a trained team will be succesful in repelling an invaider. THe information your provided was not intellectually honest as a application to the BITN. you know it wasnt. The attempt at portraying Mas Ayoob as agreeing with you, when in fact what was portrayed was an EXCERPT from an article written by "an employee". that is intellectually dishonest as well.
I called your sources, I called your information. I never called you a liar, I was clear in that. I would not want this put back into mainstream either if Iwas unwilling to see hard fact put before me just to be right.
I have hard fact to back up my claimes, experience and training. I have folks in the business willing to join and post, that what your saying is incorrect and potentially dangerous. They will state as I have that the police most often will not be able to get there in time nor will they enter imediatly. You are taking the lives of your family in your hands if you think you will be able to gather them safely without potentially engageing the threat. Your not taking into account that a prepared home will already know the location of the bad guy, by means of the dog, set up of the home and lighting. Most prepared homes will know the intuders is on the property before they enter. I maintain that while in the home the Homeowner does not become the "hunter" by virtue of him leaving a room, I maintain the he is the hunted all through the encounter and remains with the advantage. In MOUT, we do not always stay in one room, one closet, we often move as the threats move (threats being the team). Having the layout, floorplans and furnishings is the advantage, not only hiding in a closet.

IF you still think that the posts I have made are persionial attacks, then you should absolutly STOP giving tactical, life altering information over the internet and not be prepared for others with the training and experience to disagree with you and point out the truth and facts. IF your thin skined to the point of needing sheilding from the public(who will ultimately judge the merits of a discussion over the internet) then so be it.

Try this..

Explain the need for a tactical entry team, explain the need for MOUT training, then explain who the tac team is going after and who the MOUT training is to use against. WhY DO WE NEED THEM?
Finally try and conclude that the "Bad guy"(as defined as the person the tac team and MOUT trained team is seeking) and the Homeowner are the SAME. IF the HO/BG did not have such an overwhelming advantage there would be no need for MOUT, SRT,SWAT and anything other than a trained single cop serving warrants.
There has been MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollars and many more millions of man hours in training and research, to justify the position I hold.
The homeowner in the BITN case HAS THE CARDS IN HIS HANDs the Bad Guy is tempting his fate and is probably going to die, if the HO has done his job.

I am curious, what school do you teach at (no need to be specific)? What orginization are you affiliated with, ie, S.O., LEO, Military? What training have you recieved that qualifies you to instruct and offer recomendations.
 
Now you're suggesting that remaining ensconced puts someone in more danger than leaving an ensconced position? Seriously?

I do not train people for money. I am not a part of any school. I do have both military and civilian training myself. All of which has taught me to find a defensible position, ensconce myself and wait for reinforcements if possible.

You keep referring to an individual who has made several types of preparations in their home to make it more defensible. How many civilians do you think have made such preparations?

Now, as to people who might agree with you or me ... here are a couple quotes from people I don't know that agree with me:

If all this sounds like I’m trying to convince you not to clear a space, you’re doing well. Here’s the single most important thing I can convey to you about clearing your house - DON’T DO IT! In nearly every circumstance, allowing trained professionals, usually the police, clear your home is the best option. Even though I’m a self-reliant fellow who’s been trained to do this, I’d let the police clear my house if the choice presented itself.
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Larry Pomykalski of The Firing Line

Get to a safe place. A safe room is one of the best options. Unlike what you have seen in the movies, it doesn’t have to be large and filled with gadgets. An interior closet with a sturdy door that opens out is just fine. Put a deadbolt lock on the inside of the door and, most important, recharge your cell phone in there every night. Then, if you do hear someone in your home, you can go in the closet, lock it and call the police. Even if the intruder takes a phone off the hook to prevent you from calling for help, you will be able to call the police. You should be safe until the police arrive.
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Citizens Defense Training

Call me nuts but if there are attackers outside the castle walls, staying inside the castle makes the most sense to me. Likewise, if there are attackers outside my bedroom walls, staying inside my bedroom makes the most sense to me. Obviously, this is not a black and white issue. There are circumstances that demand a change in tactics.

With that, I'm done banging my head against your brick wall.
 
You misread what I said, the homeowner does not leave the ensconsed area, the HOME IS THE ENSCONSED AREA . Also IF he has afamily then most likely he will HAVE to leave the closet to gather his family, what does he do when he takes incomeing fire? what does he do when he see's the bad guy at his childs door?

What you did not ask or state is: If you are able to get your loved ones into your safe area without confrontation then by all means secure yourself and call the po po, IF there is a loved one out there then it is your duty as a father and husband to go forth and face the problem. THUS at times you must leave your closet and face the threat. OR live with yourself knowing you let you daughter get raped and killed while your in the closet waiting for the police.

Hypothetical:

My bed room is upstairs, I have two children in upstairs bedrooms and two in downstairs bedrooms,

How do I gather them into my safe room ?
How many average people have safe rooms?
Why was MOUT training implimented?
Why do we have SRT and SWAT?
DO you have children?
How do you decide which kids to take to the room and which you cannot reach because your hunkerd down in the closet?
Is your safe room bullet proof, so that when the cavalry arrives and the BG does not give up with out a fight you wont get shot? your kids?
Does your safe closet have a escape hatch for when the bad guy lights your house on fire to cover his escape? or do you stay in the closet and wait for the police and now FD?

How do you know that the police who just cleared your house while you were in the closet didnt miss the BG?, are you under the impression that the police will do a full tactical search of your home because you heard a noise?
They will not, you will be lucky if they go to each room and look. The police will not come do a tactical entry on your home if you call them and say I heard a noise. I know this for FACT.

You will probably get a drive by and maybe contact by an officer who will come to the door after looking around the yard. They will not kick in your door and come in guns blazing, with K9's barking, even if you tell them its ok too, IF you call them to tell them you heard a bump in the night.

why can you not seperate or admit your bump in the night post has nothing to do with any of this?
WHY do you think the police are going to come to your rescue and even clear your house every time you hear a noise?

The crux of this whole debate is your inability to admit that you took a simple bump in the night and turned it into a full SRT entry and MOUT situation, you keep building and changing the situation to suit the need for a full entry team when if FACT THERE WONT BE A ENTRY TEAM FORA BUMP IN THE NIGHT.
How many Cops would you like to speak too? How many Sheriffs? how many dispatchers, (NONE OF WHOM CAN POST HERE BECAUSE YOUR HIDING FROM THE FACT YOU WERE WRONG).

I am of the opinion that your recomendations on this subject have become null and void by mearly the attempt at building and changing and attempting to apply MOUT and an article from an "employee" of Mas Ayood taken out of context to support your thought that a man in his home should not check out a bump in the night. It is his right and his obligation to check it out. If he finds a legitimate threat it is his right and obligation to deal with it.
If he is able to safely gather his family and hunker down from a CONFIRMED threat, then he MAY HOPE to rely on the police to come to his aid guns blazing. He may not afford himself the luxury of expecting a police entry team to come check out a squirrl that chewed a whole in the wall and is eating his cookies just as he may not afford himself that the police will come and save him because he "thinks" he might be in danger.

You Sir were wrong. Your application of facts were wrong and your attempt to change and misrepresent things was and is intellectually dishonest.



Your first quote EXCERPT contains these words... "if the choice presented itself." what does the article say happens when the choice does not present itself and your kids are down stairs watching TV when the bump happens? Does it say to leave them and go hide? where in the excerpt does it say to call the police evertime you hear a thump downstairs

Your second quote EXCERPT contains this: "You should be safe until the police arrive." really? cause the CDT says I should be safe then I will be, correct?

THE HOMEOWNER CANNOT RELY ON ANYONE TO COME TO THE RESCUE, LEO'S WILL TELL YOU THIS. GOOD LEO'S WILL TELL YOU YOU'RE YOUR OWN FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE. Many Many Military leaders and LEO's will also tell you that the best defense is an good offense.
 
hunter72 said:
...the homeowner does not leave the ensconsed area, the HOME IS THE ENSCONSED AREA . Also IF he has afamily then most likely he will HAVE to leave the closet to gather his family, what does he do when he takes incomeing fire?
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IF there is a loved one out there then it is your duty as a father and husband to go forth and face the problem. THUS at times you must leave your closet and face the threat. OR live with yourself knowing you let you daughter get raped and killed while your in the closet waiting for the police.
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I am of the opinion that your recomendations on this subject have become null and void by mearly the attempt at building and changing and attempting to apply MOUT and an article from an "employee" of Mas Ayood taken out of context to support your thought that a man in his home should not check out a bump in the night. It is his right and his obligation to check it out. If he finds a legitimate threat it is his right and obligation to deal with it.
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THE HOMEOWNER CANNOT RELY ON ANYONE TO COME TO THE RESCUE, LEO'S WILL TELL YOU THIS. GOOD LEO'S WILL TELL YOU YOU'RE YOUR OWN FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE. Many Many Military leaders and LEO's will also tell you that the best defense is an good offense.
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These are some pretty key points that need to be considered before dealing with a bump in the night in your home. I have two kids and my priority will be to get them and my (armed) wife to one place where she can defend them. I do not want to sit and wait for the turd to find us all together. If there will be a fight I would prefer it be as far away from my family as possible. I don't want my kids seeing that and I don't want them in the same area where rounds are flying. I have gone through my house in the dark with my shotgun numerous times and can do it without tripping over couches and chairs and s**t. I can go through the whole house with my back against a wall. I know the layout and know where people are likely to be. Also, someone in the house to steal or cause some other mayhem isn't as likely to be spending his time setting up an ambush position in a house with which he is unfamiliar on the off chance that the armed homeowner will come looking for him. The homeowner, once he has secured his family, is in a better position to do this if the situation warrants it.

Bottom line - I am not hiding and waiting for the man to come make sure my kids are okay for me.
 
Before the discussion became heated,
Johnny, your assesment of YOUR situation is in line with my intent. Most likly you will have to gather your family
There are many situations where t=it would in fact be prudent to hole up and call for help, confirmed bad guy that you have had eyes on for example.
The police will come in MOST of the time if you can articulate a legitimate Bad guy in your AO. You have adressed my hope for all readers of this thread
KNOW YOUR HOME, KNOW YOUR CAPABILITIES, DEFEND WHAT GOD GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO DEFEND.

I will say that IF it were a reality that the tained professionals would come EVERY TIME to check on your well being and check those bumps in the night, that would be great. At some point the professionals will look at you as the "boy who called wolf" if they are called repeatedly to your home to check on the Bumps in the night.
Do your part (as you seem to have) Know your home, think about the possibility of all the factors going wrong and Mr Murphy stacking against you.
Train hard, teach your family what to do as their part in this terrible business. You ultimately have the advantage in your home, If you do not feel that way, make it that way. Do what you must to be able to sleep well at night knowing if your forced to defend you and yours you have the advantage, get the dog, get the lights, get the mirrors, train with them. Invite a close friend to come over and be the BG. Training at home is just as valuable as at a school.
Keep in mind that if your able to hunker down, don't count out that the BG will try and burn you out, Fire is a very quick motivator. One that I see nearly weekly in my main profession, I respect it enough that the mere thought of a BG burning down my house with me in a safe room, makes me train harder and set up my home to keep that very thing from happening. Take an assesment of your own place and do what must be done.


What we have to remember is that we are one man, and we have to be honest with OUR OWN assesment of our capabilities. But with great things (families) comes great responsibilities.
As the OP'S intention (I believe) DO NOT SEARCH OUT AN ACTIVE SHOOTER, DO NOT CLEAR UNKNOWN BUILDINGS where a confirmed BG is, be smart call the professinals, (if your qand yours are safe) because at that point it is their job to deal with it and keep you safe.
 
My daughters bedrooms are right next to mine so I just have to cross a hallway to get to their doors ... approximately 5 and 10 yards each from my door in a straight line. I have an "L" shaped hall with the top part of the "L" is where the BG will most likely be coming from and the corner part of the "L" is where my bedroom is located. My girls rooms are at the bottom part of the "L."

My problem is I have french doors in my bedroom that open into the hallway and that is a tactical issue. My wife and I have practiced a few times how we should work together to open the doors. Once opened, we will make a straight line to their bedrooms, hunker down and call the cops. I have no desire to clear the house as long as I have my family with me.
 
catnphx said:
I have no desire to clear the house as long as I have my family with me.
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I feel the same way! My personal situation is a little different though in that to get to my children, I have to cover the whole danged house. (860 sf.)

I otherwise agree, and that would be my preferred scenario. Call the cops, defend my space.
 
It's only my Wife, me and waaaay too many cats.

I'm not going to go looking for trouble if things go bump in the night, it might be a cat.
I can stand in a corner of the bedroom and see down the hall, to the dining room. I'll be in that corner, with my 590, while my Wife is on the cell phone to the PD dispatch. She'll have a high cap .45.

The 590 is loaded with high brass #4s. I've got OO buckshot on the DSAC and slugs on another one in the top dresser drawer. I've got a 150 lumen LED light, on the forend, along the left side of the barrel.

Straight down the hall, there is one, 2x4 & drywall, wall into the garage. Across the garage, through the other wall is the neighbors house. OO buck probably wouldn't overpenetrate, but it just might. Any other direction, except down the hall, there is but a single wall, or window, and a shot is out of the house, toward a residence.

Hopefully it is never needed, but a first shot would be center chest on an intruder. If that doesn't stop them, the next shot(s) will be to the groin.

Anyone not dropping after a center chest shot is probably wearing armor. Most body armor doesn't protect the groin. The groin, or lower abdomen, is a great secondary target, as there are several very vital targets in the area. (the femoral arteries, not Mr Johnson & his twins.)
 
If someone is in my house, I intend to clear it, with extreme prejudice. I'd be eager to snuff out someone in my house. Very eager. That person is a menace to society, and he's better off out of our midst. I don't plan to leave him for the judicial system, where he'd be out on the streets to do it again, perhaps to some poor soul less able to fight back.
 
Conny,
The very last thing you will ever want to do, is take the life of another person.
I was a Police Officer for 15 years, I'm also retired Army (10 years Active duty as a Grunt and an MP, 10 years National Guard). Thankfully Inever had to kill someone, but I have friends who have. One recent incident is still under investigation as I write this. Most were devastated by it. In every case it was justified. It will effect you, your family and everyone close to you. Most of their marriages did not survive the aftermath.

Remember too, this is a public forum. If/when you ever do have to use deadly force, this could be used against you by some bottom feeding lawyer claiming you had it planned.
 
gumbydammit said:
Conny,
The very last thing you will ever want to do, is take the life of another person.
I was a Police Officer for 15 years, I'm also retired Army (10 years Active duty as a Grunt and an MP, 10 years National Guard). Thankfully Inever had to kill someone, but I have friends who have. One recent incident is still under investigation as I write this. Most were devastated by it. In every case it was justified. It will effect you, your family and everyone close to you. Most of their marriages did not survive the aftermath.

Remember too, this is a public forum. If/when you ever do have to use deadly force, this could be used against you by some bottom feeding lawyer claiming you had it planned.
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I appreciate your concern. I am a lawyer, and I know the laws related to self-defense fairly well. Not all of us are bottom feeders. I have also been in and around guns all my life, and I know how to handle them. I have pulled my firearm on a few occasions with the intent to kill, and I would do so again if need be. Fortunately, on those few occasions, nothing happened. However, if there was a social pariah in my house, I would relish the opportunity to send him straight to God. Hopefully, I will never have to deal with an intruder in my house. However, the whole premise of this thread was what do you do if you think an intruder is in your house. Personally, I would be eager to hunt that bastard down and kill him.

I've always held the belief that a good offense is the best defense. And if you truly believe you are in a life and death situation - and no better example of this exists than an intruder in your house - you are better off initiating the contact and getting the drop on him before he gets it on you.
 
You should definately clear your house, if:
1) You are well insured (I'm talking about life insurance).
2) You are well trained in room clearing.
3) You have body armor.
4) You are very experienced in the combat use of your weapon.
5) You and your weapon are virtually 1oo% foolproof.
6) You have simularly trained and equiped backup.
7) You live in a state whose self-defense laws lean toward the good guy.

Combat first aid training would also be a plus.

Good luck
 
bubba in c.a. said:
You should definately clear your house, if:
1) You are well insured (I'm talking about life insurance).
2) You are well trained in room clearing.
3) You have body armor.
4) You are very experienced in the combat use of your weapon.
5) You and your weapon are virtually 1oo% foolproof.
6) You have simularly trained and equiped backup.
7) You live in a state whose self-defense laws lean toward the good guy.

Combat first aid training would also be a plus.

Good luck
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Yeah good stuff there bubba; clearing is a precise tactical operation - My choice is: stay in the bedroom (only authorized people in my house are in my bedroom - no kids, etc), cycle the 500, dial 911, and not hesitate to apply deadly force as required - but no walking around playing Rambo.
 
JSDinTexas said:
bubba in c.a. said:
You should definately clear your house, if:
1) You are well insured (I'm talking about life insurance).
2) You are well trained in room clearing.
3) You have body armor.
4) You are very experienced in the combat use of your weapon.
5) You and your weapon are virtually 1oo% foolproof.
6) You have simularly trained and equiped backup.
7) You live in a state whose self-defense laws lean toward the good guy.

Combat first aid training would also be a plus.

Good luck
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Yeah good stuff there bubba; clearing is a precise tactical operation - My choice is: stay in the bedroom (only authorized people in my house are in my bedroom - no kids, etc), cycle the 500, dial 911, and not hesitate to apply deadly force as required - but no walking around playing Rambo.
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I agree with most of this, but I will gather my kids, my wife can be calling the police while thats happenin.
 
But I concede there are times when one has to take risks. Take a case of a hostage situation where you believe an innocent party will be raped, maimed, or killed before the police can arrive, such as with a perp who is crazy, drugged-up, excaped prisoner, etc.

One might very well have 2 bad options: (1)do nothing or (2) do something that might go bad-- the perp is waiting for you in ambush.

I just wanted to point out how serious room searches are and the training and equipment, necessary to attempt it with a reasonable chance of success.

I`ve recently read Suarez`shotgun book and watched his video. The book, which has sort of a police point of view, goes into room searches a little bit. Nice to know, but I hope I never have to go through a door of a room where a BG is probably hiding. His video has more a citizen combatant approach has skips this stuff.
 
A thousand senarios I guess, but I see bubba's post as a reality check in that tactical maneuvers must be executed with precision, and can't give it more than a 50/50 chance of success. And I agree with Rossignol, that if possible, getting out into the front yard (or down the street) and waiting for law enforcement is preferable. Good remarks, I have reconsidered staying in the bedroom. Thanks.
 
JSDinTexas said:
And I agree with Rossignol, that if possible, getting out into the front yard (or down the street) and waiting for law enforcement is preferable. Good remarks, I have reconsidered staying in the bedroom. Thanks.
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I don't agree with that because you don't know what's waiting for you outside. Could be more BG's or the same BG that ran outside to chase you and the family. I don't want a shootout in the middle of the street. I'd much rather hunker down in a defensive position with my family protected and me (and my wife with her 9mm) waiting for the door to open.

Just my opinion and, yes, a million scenarios and a million possibilities. Let's hope it never happens.
 
Very interesting thread.

My house is a 2 story house with the bedrooms upstairs, the family is me+girlfriend+son (4years old).
At night we have the bottom floor and basement alarm on. The most sensible way to handle a situation would be to get our son and stay in the bedroom. If someone comes up the stairs after the alarm has gone off and he's been notified that we are home, I would then assume he means us bodily harm.

What I probably would do, and have done once when the alarm went off at 1am is load the shotgun and go down and investigate. That time if was just the motion sensors reacting to a piece of glowing wood in our fireplace flaming up momentarily.
Stupid? Most definitely.

However, if I knew someone was in my house, I would feel safer afterwards if I knew who this was and what he was after. Just to be clear, I'm not looking to shoot an intruder if it can be avoided.
 
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