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Problems with my .30-30 reloads

andrew678122

.270 WIN
I went to the range on Tuesday to try my reloads. Things didn't go as planned.

My reloads consist of 30.2 gr of IMR-4895 behind 160 gr Hornady FTX LeveRevolution bullet and Winchester primers. I checked the length and trimmed any oversize cases, did a neck resize only, chamfered the neck and seated all bullets to the same COAL, then I lightly crimped the cartridges. They looked great.

At the range I was shooting at 50 yards. With my reloads the best I could do was a ~3" group, but most groups were 4-5" or more.

I had brought a box of Remington Core-Lokt 150 gr along so I tried them and I was able to shoot much smaller 50 yard groups, down to under an inch. Therefore, I have to say it's not me or the rifle.

I've tried to figure out what's wrong but I'm not sure I'm not just getting hung up on the details. My .30-30 has a 1 in 10 twist (source Mossberg document), I measured 1 in 10.5 using a tight wad. I'd been going through the ABC's of Reloading and came upon the Greenhill formula. If I work it through it tells me I need a bullet 1.35 inches long (or 1.28 inches at 10.5 twist rate) since the twist rate on the barrell is so short. If I go by the Greenhill formula anything under 180 gr is not going to work since it's not long enough.

I was wanting to try to make some cheap plinking/range use rounds, but the small bullets I was looking at are way out according to the twist rate and the Greenhill formula.

Am I going to have to try and go by the Greenhill formula? Or is it worth trying other bullets and loads?

Any advice for someone stumbling through the minefield?
 
I've been where you are.

First observation is that the Greenhill Formula (I've never heard of that before) is obviously wrong for your gun since a lighter/shorter bullet shoots just fine.

The only suggestion I can make is to "ladder" your loads by making maybe five completed rounds at a minimum charge, then five each going up 0.5-grains of powder at a time until you are somewhere around 1.0-grain under the MAX powder charge.

It has to do with barrel harmonics and twist rates and primer energy and some ju-ju magic to find what "YOUR RIFLE" finds has the best accuracy.

Once you get the good ju-ju and get the mojo right, you stick with that combination when using that bullet!

It could be that a simple powder charge adjustment is all it takes. Usually it's that more than primers or O.A.L or case crimp or whatever.

Trouble is, when you change the bullet it all starts over. Or when you drastically change the O.A.L. Or when you change something else in a fairly big way. So.... after a while many of us quit buying lots of various bullets weights or powders or whatever "just to try" and focus on finding two or three "magic" combinations where all the planets align and everything in the world is in harmony. :)

I would bet that you'll discover one of two things:

- Your bullet will shoot great with a change of O.A.L or (more likely) a change in powder charge, or

- Your rifle just won't agree with bullet you originally started with and you'll have to start over with a hundred-count box of other bullets to try.

I think it's going to be the first. Ladder your powder charges and get some fine tuning in and I think your going to shrink your groups.

Have you a flat washer that drops over the bullet and stops just before the case mouth? If you do, compare where the washer stops in relation to the factory loaded ammunition and your reloads. That might show if a C.O.A.L change is in order.

Are you case trimming after you resize?
 
I will choose the components I want to use and then ladder the rounds as you suggest. I'll have to get something to accurately measure the powder. And keep records of everything, I have the memory of a senior citizen.

Re the washer: is it measuring the unfired case length of a factory round?

I trimmed the cases and then resized.

Even though I haven't yet discovered my perfect round, what I have done so far was a good experience, I have learned a lot.

Thanks for the input nitesite...
 
Here are some suggestions...

Don't trim until after you resize your cases, even if it's only the neck resizer. Sizing changes the case length because the shoulder gets bumped back and other factors, so you should trim after that. If you trim first and then size you just altered the case length from what you trimmed to.

The washer trick is just to see where the ogive of the bullet will contact the rifling just beyond your chamber. Maybe there is a lot of jump before your bullet contacts the lands and that affects accuracy because the pressure is inconsistent.

I can send you a couple pics of a very cheap and easy bullet comparitor that allows you to adjust for the bullet ogive (curvature) at the area where the jacket contacts the lands. All it took me was a Dremel and a cutting wheel and one brass case that I can use over and over.

Accurately making powder throws is going to be rather important. If you can keep the weight under +/- 0.03-grains it will help with your groups.

You're going to get it down real soon. Stick with that bullet you're using if you like, or switch now and then concentrate on getting your trimming/sizing a little better, and your powder measures a little more consistent. Doing that will get you some real happy results very soon. Most rifle shooters getting into reloading will waste a couple hundred bullets comng up with a good combination. After that it's all easy!
 
Yeah, that makes sense about the case trimming, from now on trimming will be done after neck sizing.

I'd like the pictures of the bullet comparitor thing. My only concern is that most bullets I will be using need to have a cannelure since it's a tube magazine. That kind of fixes the COAL doesn't it?

Wow I'm not sure I'll ever be able to measure powder that accurately, but I will check into scales. I'll probably have to sacrifice accuracy for lower cost...

I will do what I can to ensure accurate and consistent powder measures. Right now I'm using a dipper that came with the Lee Classic Lee Loader but if I'm going to vary the powder by .5 gr at a time, Lee's dippers just aren't up to it. Bottom line is I have to get a scale.

Thanks nitesite...
 
my mistake. I meant 0.3-grains accuracy. Sorry! I'll try to snap some pics soon of the bulletcomparitor thingy. It helps you to know how far off the lands you can seat and crimp your bullet.

If you're using dippers, try laddering the load by 1.0 full grain. I have the full set of Lee Dippers and enjoy using them on occasion! You'd be surprised how accurate they can be. It's all in the technique of pushing them down into the powder and not plowing thru sideways and up.
 
nitesite said:
my mistake. I meant 0.3-grains accuracy. Sorry!
I'm glad to know that! I've been on ebay looking at scales and the best accuracy is .1 gr and that's a balance type scale. There are electronic scales that are accurate to .2 grain for as little as $10.

nitesite said:
If you're using dippers, try laddering the load by 1.0 full grain. I have the full set of Lee Dippers and enjoy using them on occasion! You'd be surprised how accurate they can be. It's all in the technique of pushing them down into the powder and not plowing thru sideways and up.
I think they'd be easily repeatable, the only problem I see is that the set of dippers don't get bigger in a small enough step. What I mean is that they go up by .3 cc. I'm thinking of using Hodgdon's H4895 powder and .3 cc of it is 4.12 grains. That is the ladder rung size from one dipper to the next. They're just not fine enough steps. I think I have to get a scale.

There is a wealth of information available on the Internet, Hodgdon will generate an entire page of .30-30 loads, listing bullets, powders (their own of course, IMR, Hodgdon and Winchester), starting and max loads, muzzle energy and velocities. Lee has tables of Powder densities (grains to cc) and weights of dipper loads of various powders.

I've settled on Speer bullets and Hodgdon powder, H4895 depending on whether it's available locally. I might have to choose something else if the gun club doesn't stock it. Buying powder online adds a surcharge of $40 for shipping and hazmat fee, so the local price would have to be very high to force me to buy it online. The Ft Bliss Rod and Gun Club has a good selection lot of reloading supplies, probably more than any store in the El Paso area.

I also got the cartridge holder for my .30-30 hulls and RCBS sent me the little primer-seating piece that was missing on the Partner (RCBS sent me that piece under warantee even though I wasn't the original buyer, that's what I call customer service!). Now I'll be able to use the press to seat all of my primers! No more popped primers!

p.s. The Lee hand tool for trimming the cases to the correct length will not fit in a case that's already had the neck resized. Is that dumb? Or am I missing something? The pilot of the trimmer measures .305 and a resized case is ~.299-.300. I'm thinking about chucking the trimmer in a drill and resize the pilot by holding a sharpening stone against it while it's spinning. It's only .005 that has to be relocated (actually just .0025, but it gets removed on both sides)...

p.p.s. I resized the pilot for the case trimming tool, now it'll work on resized cases. And I tried the RCBS Partner for inserting primers. The first one I did I was pushing on the handle, but it wouldn't budge, I pushed and pushed. Then I looked at the case and the primer was in perfectly, it had gone into the pocket so easily that I hadn't noticed...
 
I've gone through tons of reloading information and have decided on the following:
1. to start, my bullet is going to be Speer's #2011 Hot-Cor 150gr SPFN
2. powder is going to be one of these: Varget, H4895 or Win 748, which one I choose depends on what the Ft Bliss Rod and Gun Club shop stocks and the price
3. I'm going to have to get a scale. I'll try to get one of the balance beam types since they are good to .1 gr and are intrinsically more stable (it's not smoke and mirrors like this new-fangled electronic stuff)

I've got the bullets on order. Varget is first powder choice solely because the Lee 2.2cc dipper that comes with the .30-30 reloader will hold 30.1 gr of Varget, close to Hodgdon's recommended starting load. I'll get the powder Monday or Tuesday. The scale, either Lee or RCBS, may take a few days longer, since I have to try and buy a used one off eBay.
 
Sounds like a really good plan is coming together!

With a scale you can trickle up to slightly higher charges and try to find a "sweet spot".

Varget is a very good powder, very stable throughout all temperature extremes. I've used a lot of it over the years.
 
The bullets are on order, I got the powder and I bought a used scale on eBay. In a few days I should have everything I need to put together some starting loads and some incrementally more powerfull loads. I'll probably do ten of each step. I assume that I shoot them from a bench rest and see how each loading performs, and whichever does best is my ideal load with that powder and bullet.
 
I got the scale today. The first thing I did was weigh the charge I was using with the IMR-4895 and Hornady 160gr FTX bullets. I was using the 2.2cc Lee dipper that came with the .30-30 Lee Classic Loader kit and what should have been 30.2gr of IMR-4895 was really 29.3gr. I zeroed the balance before weighing so I'm sure it's accurate. Maybe the IMR-4895 has changed since the Lee weight to dipper chart was printed in 2006.

And I'm still waiting on the bullets...
 
Lee dippers traditionally throw a tad light. It's been that way forever to give a tiny safety cushion.

I think you measured and used your scale just perfectly!

A lot of handloaders use a shorter cartridge case with a handle brazed on for a dipper. You could try a different case like a .357 Magnum (or whatever works) or a .30-30 cut to the exact length you need for the powder and charge weight you desire.

Or, as another method just throw a full 2.2-cc dipper into the scale pan and then use a little dip more to slowly trickle up to your target weight.
 
nitesite said:
Lee dippers traditionally throw a tad light. It's been that way forever to give a tiny safety cushion.
I guess that's the lawyer's input.

The idea of using an empty cartridge case as a dipper is a good one, I'll keep that in mind.

nitesite said:
Or, as another method just throw a full 2.2-cc dipper into the scale pan and then use a little dip more to slowly trickle up to your target weight.
Yeah, this will be the way I'll do it.
 
Latest episode:

I went to the range this morning, shooting 4 recipes of reloads, all bullets are Speer #2011 150gr FP:
The propellant was 31gr H4895:
DSC08064.JPG


The propellant was 32gr H4895:
DSC08065.JPG


The propellant was 33gr H4895:
DSC08066.JPG


The propellant was 34gr H4895:
DSC08067.JPG


The load with 32gr gave the best overall group but if I discount the one flyer in the group with 33grs it did even better. The group with 34grs seems all over the place. So, what I'm going to do is load up 10 rounds each of 32gr and 33gr and determine which performs best. Then I will vary the winner by .5gr and see if I can tweak it a little closer.
 
Looks like you're getting the hang of it. I've had to resize most of my Lee pilots to fit. Now that you've shot your first set of groups. I would go back and try to fine tune the load. If it was me, I would shoot groups loaded at 32.0, 32.2, 32.5, 32.7, 33.0, 33.2, and 33.5gr.

Also, since I didn't see it addressed. The Greenhill formula is used to calculate the longest bullet that your barrel twist rate will stabilize. Therefore, anything shorter than that will stabilize.
 
buyobuyo said:
Looks like you're getting the hang of it. I've had to resize most of my Lee pilots to fit. Now that you've shot your first set of groups. I would go back and try to fine tune the load. If it was me, I would shoot groups loaded at 32.0, 32.2, 32.5, 32.7, 33.0, 33.2, and 33.5gr.
I was going to verify whether 32.0 or 33.0gr is better first, but what you suggest may be better since it also covers what I was going to do.

buyobuyo said:
Also, since I didn't see it addressed. The Greenhill formula is used to calculate the longest bullet that your barrel twist rate will stabilize. Therefore, anything shorter than that will stabilize.
That explains it! I was thinking it was a formula to predict the best performing bullet, thanks for clearing that up.
 
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