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Bad Trump...Here Comes The Bumpstock Ban

Discussion in 'Gun Rights, Fights and Rallies' started by carbinemike, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. carbinemike

    carbinemike Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    5,886
    We didn't get anything pro gun through even with controlling the Congress and White House for 2 years. Now it appears Trump will sign off on a bump stock ban with a 90 day, turn em' in grace period.
    I had assumed that they would at a minimum allow current owners to grandfather them even if they went the draconian way of requiring registration as an NFA item.

    Thanks for nothing Congress, President Trump and the other swamp dwellers.


    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...ck-ban-citizens-have-90-days-to-turn-them-in/
    Djcala and John A. like this.
  2. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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    3,752
    The concealed carry reciprocity is still sitting in the Senate's hands. This will put the nail in the coffin for the 2020 senate being controlled by republicans.

    Hard to fight this when the NRA gave its blessing a year ago.
    Djcala and John A. like this.
  3. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

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    6,921
    Choose the battles guys....
    I understand erosion of rights.
    but defending bumpstocks makes us look petty to the ignorant and wasteful toward what is really needed.
    like a 2A aware SCOTUS
    50 STATE CCW
    noise control devices
    reliable, user maintainable weapons

    NO MICROSTAMPING!

    Too easy to frame somebody with "tagged" brass from a different time.

    No electronics. If you can't drop it in the gutter without corroding the security "brain", the brain better be human.

    free public firearms training
    Says we need a millitia in the 2A, but who trains it?
    Better not be the TV-media-public "experts" like Grabbin' Newsom (our new Gov-elect)
  4. John A.

    John A. I'm "THAT" guy Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    14,050
    Yeah, the NRA sucks.

    Yep. I said it.

    And meant every word of it.

    flame away, I don't care. Don't like it, I still don't care. The truth will stand when the world is on fire.

    The NRA has been instrumental in helping to create the 3 most ornerous laws that pertain to gun owners.

    1934 National Firearm Act (NFA)
    1968 Gun Control Act (GCA)
    1986 Firearm Protection Act (fopa)

    It should not surprise anyone that the NRA leadership was against bump stocks, et. al.

    From looking at their history going back almost 100 years, that would be a direct conflict of interest if they had not.

    Further, it's a lot easier for them to help create bad laws so they can get donations and stuff from people to help fight bad laws. It's like a pharmaceutical company giving someone cancer virus in vaccinations and then wanting to sell you drugs to treat the cancer in hopes that you might live a little longer. And that my friends, is where I am at where the NRA is concerned.

    Edit to add:
    [​IMG]
    BBtruck, ripjack13, CaddmannQ and 2 others like this.
  5. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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    3,752
    There's a difference between compromise and concession.

    Seems the past 80+ years is just concession. Couldn't get one pro-gun bill past a fully controlled republican government. But what we did get is:

    Red Flag laws
    Raised age to 21 for long guns
    Ban on an item that was already ruled legal by the ATF

    I highly doubt we will get a ruling on anything gun related for quite some time (5-10 years). SCOTUS keeps punting like the NY Jets.
    Djcala and John A. like this.
  6. Bobster

    Bobster .30-06 Supporter

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    1,792
    No I do NOT suck! :rolleyes: I say this as a Life Member--I AM the NRA! :)

    As you would know John, I had a bump stock for a brief period of time. Enough time to take a trip with the kids to the range and to burn up (waste) several hundred rounds of ammo. We had our fun and dug up the ground and berm with maybe a few shots on target. We got some video then I removed the bump stock from the gun and sold it with the kid's blessings. I can see why the NRA would oppose such a device mainly (IMO) because it is a detriment to marksmanship. Unlike a REAL full-auto gun, by its nature, it is hard to get a good grip and therefore adequate accuracy on a bump stock equipped gun. Maybe if you used it with a bipod as the LV shooter did. Anyhow, after they were banned in FL, and we went to the range, I put mine up for sale on GB and realized an acceptable profit which I used to make a donation to the NRA.

    But I oppose the banning of any such device mainly because it is an erosion of gun-related rights. I do not agree with EVERYTHING or position the NRA takes in order to look "good" to the haters. Fark 'em I say! Haters are going to hate the NRA regardless of our innocence and the good that we do and haters need to be told to go pack fudge and maybe with Colonel North as the Pres., they (we) will start doing that...
    LTB45 likes this.
  7. John A.

    John A. I'm "THAT" guy Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    14,050
    The cadence sounded more like automatic fire. Meaning, it was not chuggish, and the rate of fire sounded far too steady for it to have been a bump stock. I do not believe that a semiautomatic firearm was used in vegas.

    bump stock 4:00
    https://www.youtube.com/embed/QDbj5qV49yQ

    taxi video
    meanstreak likes this.
  8. Djcala

    Djcala .30-06 Supporter

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    2,128
    NRA life member no changing that they have the $$$. Alotta good has been done and meh also not so good. To me no diff than the Republican party itself it also Sucks Alot !! But i often find myself more closely allied supporting it as the alternative would surely be 100% unacceptable
    John A. likes this.
  9. nitesite

    nitesite Sheepdog Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    5,486
    My 3-year current NRA membership will expire in 2020. I may retire from the job around then. I'll decide then if they get my future contribution, since I will no longer need to maintain my certified instructor ratings.
    ripjack13 likes this.
  10. Tom396

    Tom396 .30-06

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    1,524
    I hate it. I don't like it. I think it was the wrong call. However, I have decided I am not about to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'd vote for him again, twice, if they'd let me. Take care. Tom Worthington
    Djcala and Elbert Garrett like this.
  11. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

    Messages:
    6,921
    I am not an NRA member. Never was.

    I am not motivated to "belong" and thus be, in some ways, owned by the NRA.
    ("Nor Nobody", as Pogo might say.)

    Somehow their "ownership" of me is unappealing, and particularly when it comes with the responsibility for actions of the "owning" group.

    I'm sorry to see them selling out in this way, but I have always hated the bumpstock. I don't like anything that reduces my control of the weapon.
    I will be glad to see it gone.

    Still, Do Not Despair about our future. Another conservative face on the SCOTUS is coming, just as inevitably as death and taxes.
  12. Djcala

    Djcala .30-06 Supporter

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    2,128
    Not sure about other NRA mems but ive never felt "owned" perhaps others have and could elaborate on the experience ? I have however enjoyed the american hunter magazine monthly, i have had alot of fun at nra cookouts with lots of conservative minded gun folks, ive had some good classes i liked and learned. I very much enjoyed the National gathering in Atlanta uber huge Gun industry show. Those sorts of things. Now the political blah blah is sort of whatever speak ya mind and support who ya want the NRA aint a union they dont sway or force me to do anything nor does anyone else, im sorta funny that way.
    Forgot to add and address point of the thread the bumpstock, il simply say i hate them but i also do not believe in laws regulating inanimate objects if any type in hopes it will cure bad human behavior that is simply stupid and imposing on someones personal rights will never change anothers behavior. So yah i believe its a mistake to go down that path.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
    Tom396 likes this.
  13. Bobster

    Bobster .30-06 Supporter

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    1,792
    Why would you not want to continue to teach courses? Perhaps offer classes to the public?
  14. nitesite

    nitesite Sheepdog Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    5,486
    Liability Insurance. The NRA offers it but I'm not going to buy in.
  15. MikeD

    MikeD I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    11,755
    I'm a life member of tbe NRA. I still believe they are the strongest gun voice in DC, unfortunately they are not using that voice effectivly and are playing politics rather than fighting as hard as they should be. Very disappointing.

    I am frustrated that nothing is advancing and we are actually losing ground.

    I could give a crap about bump stocks themselves. I had one, it was fun, I sold it. Its the principle of the matter. by caving they have effectivle said the antis were right in their claim that it magically turned any normal gun into a death dealing super machine gun. That hurts us more than the actual loss of the stocks.

    The one thing I respect about the left is that the refuse to compromise, something the right still can't seem to do on gun issues. On the upside, I think they have realized that they have aligned all the legal voters they can and have gone "full retard". The pendulum should start swinging back to the right fairly soon, if it is ever going to again.
    John A. likes this.
  16. John A.

    John A. I'm "THAT" guy Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    14,050
    I hate to necro thread, but I wanted to add an email that I got from GOA concerning the lawsuit against the gov. about the bump stock ban and forfeiture/destruction.

    I couldn't help but notice that the NRA doesn't have a similar lawsuit.

    --------------------------------

    Judge Ignores Both Law and Facts, Rules in ATF’s Favor
    Dear John,
    Well, at the eleventh hour, just four days before the bump stock ban becomes effective, a federal District Judge in Michigan finally issued his ruling on GOA’s request for a preliminary injunction blocking the bump stock ban.
    Despite our repeated pleas to expedite this case, the judge waited to virtually the last minute to issue his ruling denying our motion.
    All across the country, gun owners have been experiencing the same harsh treatment -- except for the District Court in Utah which granted a temporary injunction yesterday. But that injunction only applies to one bump stock owner in the entire nation.
    [​IMG]
    So late last night, GOA’s attorneys issued a tersely-worded appeal to the Sixth Circuit, chastising the district court for the Western District of Michigan for being in “clear error, both factually and legally.”
    Not only that, the district court deferred to the ATF’s supposed “expertise” -- a federal agency that has entrapped gun owners in the past.
    In one famous case, the ATF even used a shoe lace to “convert” a semi-automatic into a machinegun, and thus claimed that the gun owner was in possession of an unlicensed machinegun.
    Along these lines, GOA had pointed out (during oral arguments) how rubber bands can be easily used to bump fire an AR-15.
    So using the ATF’s rationale that a bump stock turns an AR-15 into a machinegun, we noted that the ATF could easily interpret the possession of rubber bands and an AR-15 to be “constructive intent” to convert the semi-auto into a full auto.
    But the judge simply discarded these arguments, saying our fears were “not well-founded.” (Yeah right, tell that the owner of the “shoe lace machinegun.”)
    What’s more, the judge claimed that federal law in regard to the definition of a machinegun is “ambiguous.” Hence, the judge claimed, it is justified for the ATF to interpret the law the way they have.
    Our attorneys responded by pointing out the fallacy of the judge’s reasoning:
    For decades, courts consistently concluded that the statute was unambiguous.... Suddenly now, our separate and jealously independent third branch of government is consistently concluding that the statute is ambiguous.... In the future, when otherwise-law-abiding bump stock owners inevitably are prosecuted for possession of unregistered machineguns, will the courts flip back, and conclude that the statute is again unambiguous?
    So here’s the bottom line: Gun Owners of America has asked the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati, Ohio to grant an immediate stay so that gun owners will be protected, and not have to turn in or destroy their bump stocks, while we argue the merits of the case.
    You can read our Sixth Circuit request here.
    Where do gun owners go from here?
    We hope to hear from the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals by Monday at the latest, with some indication of whether they will grant us a stay of the March 26th deadline.

    Bump stock owners might want to wait at least until we have some indication of whether the stay will be granted. So be sure to check our website for updates on Monday.

    Although the courts could still overturn the ban at some future date, we don’t expect that their relief would include compensation for someone who had already relinquished or destroyed their property.
    And, no, we don’t expect you would get compensation, even if you refuse to sign ATF’s form giving up your constitutional rights.
    Just so you know, the ATF has provided two forms for bump stock owners to use if they choose to forfeit their bump stocks to the ATF, rather than destroying them.
    If you contact ATF to turn in a bump stock, the ATF will likely ask owners to sign ATF Forfeiture (Form ATF 3400.1) and/or Property Receipt (ATF 3400.23) forms.
    [​IMG]
    You are not required to turn in anything or sign any form, but if you elect to do so, note the following:
    1. The ATF Forfeiture form is a waiver of your rights and releases ATF from all liability. So read the form -- and talk to your own attorney if you are thinking of signing it! Even if a court later decided against ATF, a person who signed this form would have no claim.
    2. Unlike the ATF Forfeiture form, the Property Receipt form is simply an acknowledgement that ATF has received your bump stock and you no longer possess it. If you plan to turn it in, then get the ATF to sign this form as a receipt, and you keep a copy.
    Of course, the alternative is destroying the bump stock -- an act which would not require any reporting to or verification by the government.
    And, while we are not advocating this, we suspect a lot of people are just going to hold on to their bump stocks pending the courts’ final disposition of the issue sometime in the future, but that comes at the risk of possessing an illegal and unregistered machine gun.
    There will be several cases -- including ours -- that will continue to challenge the legality of the bump stock regs, even beyond next week’s destruction or turn-in deadline.
    But after next Monday, gun owners should not expect any decisions in the near future.
    I realize that this has not been a lot of good news. However, if there is any “silver lining,” it is that the higher we appeal, the greater our likelihood of success.
    The Sixth Circuit is conservative -- skeptical of government overreach and leaning pro-gun.
    But as you can imagine, each appeal gets more and more expensive, as we battle a government “Goliath” which has endless funds.
    I truly appreciate all the support that GOA members have given to make this case possible.
    If you’d like to make a contribution to help us pursue further litigation in this matter, you can give a tax-deductible donation here.
    Thanks again for all your help.
    In Liberty,
    Erich Pratt
    Executive Director
    carbinemike and MikeD like this.
  17. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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  18. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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  19. Pawpaw

    Pawpaw .30-06 Supporter

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  20. carbinemike

    carbinemike Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    I like the Babylon Bee. It has surpassed The Onion for best satirical sight.

    Does anyone else think Justice John Roberts can't be trusted anymore to defend the 2A? he was part of preventing the bump stock ban from being heard by the Supreme Court.

    If a device that still requires a pull of the trigger for each round fired can be classified "an automatic weapon" what is to stop a presidential decree doing the same thing to an AR-15?

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