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Best for home defense

Discussion in 'Ammunition' started by Zachary, Mar 21, 2014.

  1. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

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    7,295
    It also just occurred to me that with a double barrel shotgun I can muzzle load anything I want. All I need is some powder, primers and some spent brass.
  2. Pawpaw

    Pawpaw .30-06 Supporter

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    1,701
    I have a supply of LE132 1B. It most definitely uses the FliteControl wad. Here's where I patterned it from my 930 SPX with an 18" cylinder bore barrel:

    [​IMG]
    gunguy and Rossignol like this.
  3. Mike590A1

    Mike590A1 .410

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    49
    That's a big difference in spread going from 15 to 20 yards.
  4. Pawpaw

    Pawpaw .30-06 Supporter

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    1,701
    Really? At 15 yards I see about a 4" spread. At 20 yards I see a 9 or 10" spread.

    Looks reasonable to me.

    Besides, 5 yards is about the max for typical home defense.
  5. gunguy

    gunguy .22LR

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    24
    For HD I only use buckshot, either #4 or #00 in my 590A1. I load #4 in the chamber and successive 4 rounds, and the last 4 rounds are #00, in case #4 doesn't stop them. I only use Hornady and Federal Premium for HD in all my guns.
  6. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    9,268
    big difference

    think about his statement....no reasoning at all just a true stement......it doubled in 5 yards, a big difference.....you flight control guys are so sensitive
  7. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

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    7,295
    Hey this Flite Control stuff is all new to me, but it sounds pretty cool. I read all about how they developed a new wad that doesn't open up but instead just gets left behind. Pretty cool stuff.

    I have heard of people using things like wax to cast the pellets together instead of using a plastic shot cup.

    I keep reading about pellet deformation and how it screws up the ballistics, but I don't have a clue how you can smash all those pellets together with gunpowder and not deform them.

    Could this give some ballistic advantage to harder shot like steel shot or bronze shot, in spite of lower density?
  8. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    9,268
    the flight control cup opens fins , it keeps pellets together longer in flight.....if the cup didn't open or provide some sort of drag the pellets would never exit the cup and act like a fragmenting slug upon impact.
    It is a fake choke of sorts......and real chokes affect the way it performs. I have a Vang Comp worked barrel with back boring and a "jug" choke done on a cylinder bore barrel.
    It doesn't effect the way flight control works too much but it brings so many other shells so close to the performance of flight control that it doesn't seem like the flight control magic is working from the VCS barrel


    Wax.....trying to get a slug effect from pellets. Cheesy at best but in a pinch probably better than bird shot on flesh

    Pellet deformation doesn't effect ballistics as much as it creates fliers and wide or weird patterns.....velocity and trajectory is not effected as a whole on the payload
    Buffer compound , copper jacket, hard lead are all ways that companies and reloaders combat pellet deformation.
    It first happens upon discharge and the forces involved, then the choke if present deforms the pellets further exiting the muzzle

    Flight control is cool, but it isn't the end all be all and it isn't worth the hunt to me. If you get a barrel worked then you aren't a slave to a certain ammo and its availability to get the performance desired
    nitesite and Rossignol like this.
  9. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    12,760
    ^^^good info Mr. Oli.

    I too had the Vang Comp work done on a 20" barrel. The barrel performed very well with FliteControl prior to the VCS work. Afterwards, FliteControl performance decreased but other more common loads worked better than before. Based on my experience playing around with choke tubes, I believe the VCS porting was interfering with the FliteControl wad.

    I stocked up on FliteControl buckshot long ago and am still using that old supply. I bought it at about $4.50 a box compared to around $7.49 today. In the absence of FliteControl I use a choke but what we're talking about here is HD and unless that extends to your outdoor property, it probably will make little difference as I've found that inside 7 yards, nearly every load makes a single hole. At 10 yards most loads begin to open up to the point you can count individual pellets and by 25 yards, some of the most common and basic loads have fallen apart to the point that some pellets aren't on target at all unless your target is 30x30". The FliteControl loads are typically still on target at this point and in some cases as far out as 40 yards.

    I have some really crappy video I can look up if need be. Each of my test guns have been 20" guns from cylinder bore, cylinder bore with VCS, and choked.
    oli700 likes this.
  10. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    9,268
    exactly.

    Flight control pushers talk about how far it goes......then when it opens up they talk about how "normal" distances are 7 yards .......so yeah, I would be more interested in it for a hunting round, why it was first developed , but again chokes have been working for years so the better mouse trap never took over the world of hunting quite like the it did in LEO clicks

    if its outside 25 yards grab a rifle .....that shoots rifle ammo and lots of it .
  11. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    9,268
    can you clarify? I'm interested in this......or at least a video of you doing it
  12. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    12,760
    Here are some really bad videos. Please bear in mind I had no idea what I was talking about several years ago and I know only slightly more now.







    And another I did for accuracy.

    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
    CaddmannQ likes this.
  13. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

    Messages:
    12,760
    I found another, also pretty bad. Also kind of long but what you can see in this one is the difference between VCS and not using the same load, in this case, Hornady Critical Defense with VersaTite. Similar to FliteControl yet not quite the same.

    Dang, I was 40 pounds heavier and less than half as much beard in all these videos.

    CaddmannQ and oli700 like this.
  14. Mccarlson

    Mccarlson Copper BB

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    4
    12 Guage, 2 3/4 inch shells. Considering this shell has more lead in it than 00buck, and at this close distance, instead of making 9 neat little holes in the front and in the back, it appeared to make one big hole the size of your fist in the front, and you could see 50-60 (of the 130ish total) little pellets bulging from under the skin in his back with a pattern about the size of a dinner plate. None of them had made an exit though. I never said #4 bird shot was my top choice for HD. I only said that from what I've seen in real life, under certain circumstances, it can be devastating.
  15. Mccarlson

    Mccarlson Copper BB

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    4
    All of those links are irrelevant to what I said. Sawed off shotguns? Dove load? Distances of 30 yards? I'm only referring to #4 size, and 0-10 foot distances with unaltered shotguns. #4 shot is only half the size of #4 buck, which is again only about half the size of #00 buck. Why do you feel the need to be sorry for your decision to use lethal force, and what does 00 buck shot have to do with that? ANY load in a shot gun is considered lethal force by law, and while you don't have to justify the lethality of 00 buck (nobody is debating that so you can chill out on that one batman), you will have to justify unintended injuries or casualties of the family next door to you (thanks to that stray 00buck pellet which pays no mind to the layers of wimpy sheetrock it had to pass through), which by the way, are unjustifiable. If you live alone out in the woods, good for you, use a railgun for all I care if it's what makes you good, I'm not trying to infringe on your rights, tell you what to do, or make you feel any less a man. I simply said i've seen #4 shot at close range do horribly gruesome things to a person and that it shouldn't be discounted as a potential HD load in certain situations (like when you have people sleeping in the room behind the intruder you are about to shoot).
  16. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    12,760
    At 10 feet, everything is going to make one hole. Everything else being equal in a shotshell but for the size of the pellet, the smaller pellet looses energy faster. At close range as described, I have no reason to doubt claims of lethality from a #4 bird load. But at a greater distance when the load opens up, the smaller pellets being accountable for their own individual weight, may not be enough to be reliable. It becomes a gamble.

    You mention every load being considered lethal force in the eyes of the law, and while that's true, it doesn't mean every load is lethal.

    The title of this thread is "best for home defense". No one here can say that would have to be just one thing. "The best", is going to depend on the individual making the decision. Some loads are definitely more lethal than others however if a potential engagement may happen at across the room distance. Others may or may not take the fight out of a threat say from the top of the stairs to the bottom.
  17. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

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    7,295
    Well I've never done it and I've only seen videos of it done, but it seems pretty easy.

    I think this will work with any break action shotgun.

    You trim the plastic off some high brass hulls, clean them up and insert new primers.

    You put those homemade caps in the gun and close the breach.

    Ram your black powder down the muzzle with a patch.

    Ram your shot or ball in with another patch, and that's it.

    Unlike a muzzleloader you clean it through the breach and you don't need a ball puller or such. Just a suitable ramrod.

    This guy shows you how to do it with a single shot.

    oli700 likes this.
  18. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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    3,806
    Batman?

    You're the one who needs a chill pill calling people applied armchair ballistic tacticians right off the bat.

    Keep up the name calling and see where that gets you.

    And here we go with the.... (Goes through walls and kills your neighbor) bit.

    Do you realize how incredibly rare that is? Like insanely rare that a shotgun blast goes through the walls and kills your neighbor unintentionally.

    I searched and found one instance in an apartment setting and it didn't identify the shot used. One.

    And yes, horrible. Killing someone isn't something I'd be proud about even if it was a necessity. But if it was, I'd use something that has a proven record of getting the job done.
    nitesite likes this.
  19. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

    Messages:
    7,295
    Hey I accidentally wrote 10 feet when I meant 10 yards. I never did put a Target at 10 feet.

    The closest I shot it was about six feet, directly into the dirt. The pattern was no more than 3 inches.
  20. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    9,268
    thats cool, you got to try that

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