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Best for home defense

Keep in mind that, like any other government body, the FBI imposes arbitrary standards. I'm guessing that in this case the arbitrary standard is trying to account for barriers and/or heavy clothing. If they wanted to be really scientific they would use cadaver testing, but that probably wouldn't go over too well with the public, so they use gelatin.

MikeT is spot-on when he mentions 2 yards (6 ft). If I had a choice, I'd prefer a bit more distance between me and an aggressor. Birdshot loses velocity quickly because the small pellets have less mass. At 20 ft (the length of a hallway), it may cause an aggressor a lot of pain, but might not be enough to end the fight.
 
RAT, you are right on, and bring up an important point. What you choose for ammo and standard should be based on where you use it and what you are trying to accomplish. FBI is accounting for a subject in the open with clothing. Home defense is multiple barriers and obstacles in relatively short spaces. The "best" round is the one that does the job you expect it to do. I wouldn't take OO buck to a fight over 50m any more than I would take a .50cal to a fight in a hallway. The context of the intended use matters.

Which is the reason that I tell my wife that I need many guns, because no one of them will do the job by itself. :)

As for me, there is a graduated scale. 6bird, 4bird, 4bird, 3x 1buck, 3x OObuck. I don't pack slugs inside because they are more likely to exit the house and go to the neighbors. In reality, the pistol is coming out first though...
 
I'm using strictly 00 buck. I'm not overly concerned with over penetration. I would worry if I were living in an apartment. I own a single family house on a corner lot. I have one neighbor to the side, and one behind. The one behind is a good 30 ft from me with a wooden fence between. The one on the side is less than 20 ft. The stray pellets would have to go through kitchen appliances before they could penetrate the wall on that side.

I keep slugs around just in case of a SHTF/major disaster, but I can't see using them for general home defense unless I need to run outside to disable a vehicle. That would be questionable from a legal standpoint if I were claiming self defense.
 
I think the recommendation will be much easier if you know exactly what kind of attacker you are going to have to deal with. So, exactly what kind of attacker are you going to be facing? I go worst case, because I have no idea what I'm going to be facing. Hence, 00 buck and PDX1 buck over slug. Take care. Tom Worthington
 
FBI agents may be required to shoot through barriers such as but not limited to windshields, car doors, walls, doors in a home / business, ect. In a home defense situation, you do not have federal or state agency backing your actions. You need to be sure of your target and what is beyond your target. You have to prove lethal force was required to protect your life and the lives of others. If your shooting through a wall blindly, you asking to be introduced to new living quarters. If the threat is standing in the door way with a gun / knife and has evil in their eyes and you put a slug or buckshot through him, the walls behind them and into your neighbors house and into your neighbor.... Well, you just won a new place to live. With number 8, the bad guys body parts are now part of your paint scheme, your neighbors are terrified of you, but you MAY not have to move to a 6'x8' cement room with no views. Out eight feet, the shot wad is essentially one piece of masterful hurt.
 
MikeT said:
You need to be sure of your target and what is beyond your target. You have to prove lethal force was required to protect your life and the lives of others. If your shooting through a wall blindly, you asking to be introduced to new living quarters. If the threat is standing in the door way with a gun / knife and has evil in their eyes and you put a slug or buckshot through him, the walls behind them and into your neighbors house and into your neighbor.... Well, you just won a new place to live. With number 8, the bad guys body parts are now part of your paint scheme, your neighbors are terrified of you, but you MAY not have to move to a 6'x8' cement room with no views. Out eight feet, the shot wad is essentially one piece of masterful hurt.
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There's a lot of what if's in any argument. My wife is instructed to barricade herself and my son in a safe area. If someone then tries to break down that door to get to them she is instructed to fire through the door. I would assume my ammo choice would be indicative of my worst case scenario.

Plus where I live if you discharge your weapon you go to jail regardless. Be it 00 buck, 8 bird, 9mm JHP, 45 ACP JHP, .223/5.56, etc. Grand Jury and possible court.

Are there any cases where the choice of ammunition lead to conviction?

And here's an example of home invader which sued the homeowner for discharging a firearm against them:

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/10/24/burglar-who-shot-marin-county-homeowner-in-face-suing/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/burglar-sues-calif-homeowner-90-who-returned-fire/
 
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MikeT said:
FBI agents may be required to shoot through barriers such as but not limited to windshields, car doors, walls, doors in a home / business, ect. In a home defense situation, you do not have federal or state agency backing your actions. You need to be sure of your target and what is beyond your target. You have to prove lethal force was required to protect your life and the lives of others. If your shooting through a wall blindly, you asking to be introduced to new living quarters. If the threat is standing in the door way with a gun / knife and has evil in their eyes and you put a slug or buckshot through him, the walls behind them and into your neighbors house and into your neighbor.... Well, you just won a new place to live. With number 8, the bad guys body parts are now part of your paint scheme, your neighbors are terrified of you, but you MAY not have to move to a 6'x8' cement room with no views. Out eight feet, the shot wad is essentially one piece of masterful hurt.
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That all depends on where you live. Around here a successful whacking of a intruder usually results in a congratulatory backyard BBQ with your neighbors.
 
At eight feet, one ounce is one ounce...
Water Monkey said:
There's a lot of what if's in any argument. My wife is instructed to barricade herself and my son in a safe area. If someone then tries to break down that door to get to them she is instructed to fire through the door. I would assume my ammo choice would be indicative of my worst case scenario.

Are there any cases where the choice of ammunition lead to conviction?

And here's an example of home invader which sued the homeowner for discharging a firearm against them:

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/10/24/burglar-who-shot-marin-county-homeowner-in-face-suing/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/burglar-sues-calif-homeowner-90-who-returned-fire/
Click to expand...
Water Monkey said:
There's a lot of what if's in any argument. My wife is instructed to barricade herself and my son in a safe area. If someone then tries to break down that door to get to them she is instructed to fire through the door. I would assume my ammo choice would be indicative of my worst case scenario.

Plus where I live if you discharge your weapon you go to jail regardless. Be it 00 buck, 8 bird, 9mm JHP, 45 ACP JHP, .223/5.56, etc. Grand Jury and possible court.

Are there any cases where the choice of ammunition lead to conviction?

And here's an example of home invader which sued the homeowner for discharging a firearm against them:

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/10/24/burglar-who-shot-marin-county-homeowner-in-face-suing/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/burglar-sues-calif-homeowner-90-who-returned-fire/
Click to expand...
 
I do not know of any cases where ammunition type resulted in a conviction of a SD shooting that was ruled justifiable.

However, innocent victims have been made by rounds going through bad guys, through multiple walls during justifiable SD shootings. The "good guys / gals also had to face the criminal charges for wounds and or accidentally killing those down range. This has recently happened with several NYC shootings. My point is regarding ammunition used in a home defense purposed 12 gauge shotgun. I know a 12 gauge slug will go through may walls (Including brick). To better reduce the risk of this, there are better choices of different types of 12 gauge ammunition. I have watched demonstrations with low recoil (12 gauge, 2 3/4", 8 shot, 2 3/4 dram skeet loads) go through three sheets of sheet rock (sheets were 6" apart for one wall and he walls were 10' apart) from two yards. From one yard, the same load went through four sheets of sheet rock. Slugs (regardless of normal distances found in an average size house) went through three simulated brick walls with two walls of sheet rock between. For my home defense loads for the shotgun, I us factory Federal 12 gauge, 2 3/4", number 8 shot, 2 3/4 DE. I know from the farthest unobstructed distance in my house that I can shoot (Approximately 30') A bad guy is not going walk away from the load when it makes contact. I also know from first hand field experience, there will be one hell of mess o clean up. My neighbors will be scared, I will have to have a lawyer fight my case for me and I will probably get to meet many nice uniformed individuals at the city or county jail. With that said, my neighbors and my family will be safe from the bad guy and from the ammunition used.
 
MikeT said:
At eight feet, one ounce is one ounce...
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In theory.

Realistically that 1 oz shot doesn't impact and disburse as one single unit. The size, speed, weight of those individual #8 pellets don't penetrate well enough for my intended application.

I've seen those same videos on sheet rock. But the human body which is mainly composed of water would have a different impact on the projectile.

I'd be willing to see the impact on ballistic gelatin once the shot got through the sheet rock.

The NYC shootings... The same ones where police fired in a crowded street? Do you have a link on that?
 
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Here's one. Skip to 5:45 for the gel test.

Not too impressed with 4-5" of penetration.
 
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Don't have any first hand experience shooting sheet rock, but we were asked by the club to use #8 lead shot at our first bowling pin match. It was effective at taking the pins down from 7-15 yd, but the big surprise was that the shot didn't penetrate through the thin outer plastic cover. The pellets just stuck half in, half out of the plastic. 9mm handgun rounds zipped through the entire pins, wood core and all, like it was butter. The even bigger surprise were the ricochets off of the wooden 6x6 stand with the #8 shot when one shooter aimed too low. Nobody expected that. Myself, a few others, and the range owner were hit with multiple pellets. It stung like hell, but none broke skin.

Everyones situation and comfort level is different. I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this info or certainly not with my opinion, but I won't be using #8 shot when my own life or the lives of my family depend on it...
 
^^ Just me, but I'd go with a .22 pistol & 20rds of CCI 40gr cprn minimag before I'd rely on #8 shot. Easier to handle, better penetration, and less mess. But I do have other options available. :)


 
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Water Monkey said:

Here's one. Skip to 5:45 for the gel test.

Not too impressed with 4-5" of penetration.
Click to expand...

No, but go to youtube and search for NYC shooting injures bystanders.

Number 8 shot performed as I would hope on the pork shoulder / rib setup.

The 8 shot load also performed as expected when fired through a wall.

It proves to me 8 shot is safer in a crowded neighborhood for an in house defense round.

I am not telling anyone to use 8 shot instead of a slug or buckshot. That is for each of us to decide.

In a home defense situation, I do not see why I would be shooting through a wall or door if the perpetrator is not in the room with me.

I hope people think about how the load they are considering will perform if a miss should happen and, also, if they do hit the threat.

I stay in a very remote cabin in Colorado. For the last five years in a row we have had bear come to the door. We have had moose in the front yard and elk all over the property. Different type of threat, but threats all the same. There is no mobile phone coverage. The windows with exception of two front windows are too small for my children to fit through. There, in the 930 I use Winchester 2 3/4" slugs for the first two rounds, the third is Winchester's PDX load, the last 5 are Remington 3" 12 pellet shells. I do not have neighbors anywhere close and the police are at best thirty minutes away. My AR is loaded with 62 grain Gold Dots. My M&P40 is loaded with Federal 180 grain HST's. When there, the pistol is on my hip a all times unless I am in bed or the bath. The AR is at the door way between the bedroom and living room, the 930 is next to couch in the living room. I tailor the defense loads to the environment I am in. At my primary house, there are houses on all sides of me. I can not afford to risk projectiles leaving my residence.
 
Know your target and beyond.

Dead men can't hire lawyers or tell their side to the authorities.

The following is the last paragraph of the attached FBI report.

"CONCLUSIONS
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid
bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

I would interpret this to mean that a slug is better than buckshot...
 

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I've read that report before, and I'd point out that the focus of it is the use of a handgun in unexpected situations as the report states. If you have some warning - even a few seconds - and can arm yourself with a long gun, then the odds of success turn greatly in your favor. This is why I repeatedly emphasize defense in depth for the home - warning system, obstacles, delays. Can't do much about the street or in the mall, except keep your eyes peeled and practice situational awareness.
 
I run a mixed tube on my shotgun for HD. 00 and slugs. But, I solos have my AR close by. And with either one I grab, a .45 will be on me at the same time. To many variables in home defense. The .45 is in Arms length while sleeping. Shotgun or AR will be grabbed on the way out of the bedroom. In practice drills, my choice will be determined by how many intruders I think I hear.


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I want to see a 1-oz foster slug go thru three brick walls and four layers of sheetrock like was stated above.
 
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