• Mossberg Owners is in the process of upgrading the software. Please bear with us while we transition to the new look and new upgraded software.

Defense Ammo

S

sjohnny

.410
Someone asked a question about 3" 00 for home defense in the maintenance section. I thought this would be an appropriate place for the answer I gave:

3" 00 while having more pellets than a round of 2-3/4" 00 usually won't pattern as well and recoils a lot more. What that recoil does is slows down your follow-up shots. I generally don't worry about what round has a higher percentage of "one shot stops". I find the idea of focusing on a one shot stop to be dangerous due to the fact that if you believe all it will take is one shot to stop the bad guy you may not be ready with a follow up shot when that first one doesn't stop him. Federal 00 buckshot with a flitecontrol wad or Hornady TAP are what I recommend for a defensive load. The low recoil versions of both are very effective rounds that have a soft enough recoil to allow you to put multiple rounds on target very quickly.

Bird shot is for birds. Even turkey loads. Birdshot may kill someone but it won't reliably instantly stop them which is what the goal of a defensive shooting should be. It doesn't do you any good to kill someone if they have time to kill you back before they die. That is why the idea is to stop the offender rather than kill them. Buckshot will much more reliably stop them RIGHT NOW.

The FBI has established a testing protocol for ammunition intended to be used against people. Through their testing and research they have determined that in order for a round to be a reliably effective fight stopper it needs to penetrate at least 12" in ballistic gelatin. Buckshot is the only shot that reliably makes it to at least 12". #4 Buckshot only barely makes it and not all the time. 00 Buckshot does it reliably and with a flitecontrol wad as loaded by Federal or Hornady (Hornady calls it something else) all the pellets will be close together when they hit. #1 Buckshot appears to be ideal for defensive use but is not as readily available as 00 and isn't available in a tight patterning load.
 
I've done some testing with birdshot and paper targets with cardboard backers. Draw your own conclusions about the human body.

Test Gun: Mossberg 930 SPX
Test Load: Winchester AA Target, 2 3/4", 7.5 shot
30 Yard Results: Peppering of 24" X 36" paper target with nearly 100% target coverage, indentations in cardboard, virtually no pellets passed through the cardboard
15 Yard Results: Peppering of 24" X 36" paper target with approximately 18" - 20" pattern, virtually all pellets passed through the cardboard backer
5 Yard Results: Tearing of 24" X 36" paper target and some damage to cardboard backer larger than pellet-sized holes, pattern approximately 12"
2 Yard Results: Approximately 5" hole in paper target and cardboard backer

The Box of Truth also has some good test results on birdshot
 
Mudinyeri,

Would you mind posting this, copy/paste, into the ammo section? We have a ballistics/patterning/range report thread begun. I'm thinkin this info would be good to add. The more info the better for folks to make a well informed decision.
 
My house is brick all around. All angles I'd be shooting from would be directed to those walls. My distances are at 15 yards max. I use the Remmington 2 3/4, 1200fps low recoil 00 buck. That's good for indoor self defense. There are others that are good also, this is just what I have loaded.
 
Just purchase some Winchester supreme elite, and some Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense rounds, gonna test in the desert this weekend. Ill be sure to let you guys know the results. :mrgreen:
 
Boxotruth has an interesting vid on the 12 vs 20 ga comparision.
I use a 20. The difference in an HD scenario is not a heck of a lot with
12 ga 00buck vs 20 ga #3 buck. All depends if you want to splatter the BG
all over the house or just drop him. Either way is a done deal.
I tried Federal #4 HD low recoil ammo and standard Remington #3. I don't
feel any difference in recoil and the #3 buck is a lot cheaper.
Maybe the low recoil stuff in a 12 ga makes a difference but I don't see it
in a 20 ga.
 
The Box of Truth. thanks for pointing that out. bookmarked.
 
yes i know this is a gun forum, however, has anyone seen or used the bean bag ammo? or rubber bullets?
link-->
http://www.keepshooting.com/12-gauge-ba ... round.html
http://www.keepshooting.com/rubber-buckshot-12ga.html
it would be interesting to see if it would work in the home defense area, then instead of killing the BG and knowing you killed some sob and then having your gun taken for a year or 2 and having to move out temporarily while the "mess" is cleaned. i'm just curious about it. but i still have 00 buck in my H&R 12g. just in case. it's one i'm "ready to part with"....
 
Less lethal ammo is best for govmint troops trying to get unruly people to move along without killing any more than necessary. This assumes the targets are a fair distance away, because up close these things are more likely to kill or maim.
For closeup work in HD, you run into the same problems as with birdshot: you are legally using deadly force, whether you know it or not, and your chance of a one-shot stop has just gone down from almost 100% to some lower number. Do you feel lucky today?
I concede less lethal shells might be a good thing to have for some unlikely civil disturbance episode where not having any dead bodies to explain after the smoke clears would be to your advantage, but this is a real long shot for most people.
 
Tried the winchester supreme elte, from 10 feet away shot pattern was about and inch a part. Very good pattern.
 
sjohnny said:
Someone asked a question about 3" 00 for home defense in the maintenance section. I thought this would be an appropriate place for the answer I gave:

3" 00 while having more pellets than a round of 2-3/4" 00 usually won't pattern as well and recoils a lot more. What that recoil does is slows down your follow-up shots. I generally don't worry about what round has a higher percentage of "one shot stops". I find the idea of focusing on a one shot stop to be dangerous due to the fact that if you believe all it will take is one shot to stop the bad guy you may not be ready with a follow up shot when that first one doesn't stop him. Federal 00 buckshot with a flitecontrol wad or Hornady TAP are what I recommend for a defensive load. The low recoil versions of both are very effective rounds that have a soft enough recoil to allow you to put multiple rounds on target very quickly.

Bird shot is for birds. Even turkey loads. Birdshot may kill someone but it won't reliably instantly stop them which is what the goal of a defensive shooting should be. It doesn't do you any good to kill someone if they have time to kill you back before they die. That is why the idea is to stop the offender rather than kill them. Buckshot will much more reliably stop them RIGHT NOW.

The FBI has established a testing protocol for ammunition intended to be used against people. Through their testing and research they have determined that in order for a round to be a reliably effective fight stopper it needs to penetrate at least 12" in ballistic gelatin. Buckshot is the only shot that reliably makes it to at least 12". #4 Buckshot only barely makes it and not all the time. 00 Buckshot does it reliably and with a flitecontrol wad as loaded by Federal or Hornady (Hornady calls it something else) all the pellets will be close together when they hit. #1 Buckshot appears to be ideal for defensive use but is not as readily available as 00 and isn't available in a tight patterning load.
Click to expand...

I am going to disagree with you on bird shot to a point. At the distance that home invasion gun fights take place a #8 2.75" load will most definitely stop and kill any unprotected person (Body Armor) you are engaging. What I like about this is that it won't over penetrate the intended target or wall if you miss and the rounds continue into another room where family may be. I have read tests on this and down some experimenting in our Defense/Offensive tactics courses we teach at our club. We have built demo walls to show people what happens with the rounds from .45, 9mm, .38, .380, 22, 22m, .223,.308 and all types of shotgun rounds. We have placed typical furniture, appliances and walls in such a way to build actual rooms to determine what the rounds penetrate and don't and what is considered cover vs concealment. You would be surprised what 00 buck penetrates and how far it goes. Also faster is sometimes better than slower due to fragmentation!

keep this in mind a 1oz load #8 = 434 grains at 1600fps = 2400 ftlbs energy at 15 feet. A .45 acp 230 ball round at 15 feet = 430 ftlbs energy
Beyond that range the energy level decreases so much that it will not have the desired effect you are looking for. At that point you can switch over to your favorite round.


Again, I am really concerned with the overpenetration of rounds with my kids in the house which is why I through this out there.
 
Remadl700 said:
I am going to disagree with you on bird shot to a point. At the distance that home invasion gun fights take place a #8 2.75" load will most definitely stop and kill any unprotected person (Body Armor) you are engaging.
Click to expand...
No. It might. It can. But it most certainly will not "most definitely stop and kill any unprotected person." Time and again it has been shown that it will not. There are a ton of links in this board for terminal ballistics research that has been done by professionals that cover the exact circumstances you describe and birdshot has NOT been found to be an effective round on a reliable basis.
What I like about this is that it won't over penetrate the intended target or wall if you miss and the rounds continue into another room where family may be.
Click to expand...
It certainly won't over-penetrate, but then one of the leading experts in the field of terminal ballistics has said that over-penetration is a non-event. Anything that will relibly stop a threat will penetrate common household walls. That's just the way of things.
I have read tests on this and down some experimenting in our Defense/Offensive tactics courses we teach at our club. We have built demo walls to show people what happens with the rounds from .45, 9mm, .38, .380, 22, 22m, .223,.308 and all types of shotgun rounds. We have placed typical furniture, appliances and walls in such a way to build actual rooms to determine what the rounds penetrate and don't and what is considered cover vs concealment. You would be surprised what 00 buck penetrates and how far it goes. Also faster is sometimes better than slower due to fragmentation!
Click to expand...
Probably wouldn't be surprised. It is pretty well known what these rounds do. Fragmentation is more a function of rifle and carbine rounds, so they wouldn't be a factor in this matter.
keep this in mind a 1oz load #8 = 434 grains at 1600fps = 2400 ftlbs energy at 15 feet. A .45 acp 230 ball round at 15 feet = 430 ftlbs energy
Beyond that range the energy level decreases so much that it will not have the desired effect you are looking for. At that point you can switch over to your favorite round.
Click to expand...
Your equation is wrong. You assume that in the 1 ounce load that the 434 grains is a homogenous, monolithic mass. In essence, you are pooling the entire weight of ALL of the several hundred projectiles into one single monolithic projectile. They are not. The are each an individual projectile that happen to be closely clustered. However, they do NOT act in total unison, and thus do not have the total energy you attribute to it. They are in fact seperate in the bore, they start to open up immediately upon exiting the muzzle, and certainly open up further once they come into contact with a target.
Your equation would be correct for a slug of that mass, but not for birdshot or buckshot. You have equated a one pound solid rock to a handful of gravel that also weighs one pound. They behave differently in both external ballistics and terminal ballistics. In this discussion, the terminal ballistics difference is what really matters.
Furthermore that energy is pretty much meaningless outside of the fact that it will allow the projos to do work. Energy by itself is not determinate of wounding mechanism in projectiles. Without the mass to maintain momentum in the dense medium of the target, the projo will not penetrate very far. There are two means to stop an aggressor without voluntary compliance: a CNS hit or exsanguination. Both require penetration and disruption. Energy alone will not do that. Birdshot is not of sufficient size to do that. Buckshot will: specifically #1B is the smallest buck that will do so.
Again, I am really concerned with the overpenetration of rounds with my kids in the house which is why I through this out there.
Click to expand...
As long as you understand that you are chosing a round that does not penetrate well, and because of that may not penetrate sufficiently to rapidly stop an attacker. That is the obvious downside to having a round with projectiles that do no penetrate well.
 
ripjack13 said:
yes i know this is a gun forum, however, has anyone seen or used the bean bag ammo? or rubber bullets?
link-->
http://www.keepshooting.com/12-gauge-ba ... round.html
http://www.keepshooting.com/rubber-buckshot-12ga.html
Click to expand...
Yes. Many people have thought of it. It is a bad idea.
it would be interesting to see if it would work in the home defense area,
Click to expand...
You would have to define "work" and what metric you are using to determine if it does.
then instead of killing the BG
Click to expand...
You are aware that rather than Less Than Lethal they have had to change the name to Less Lethal right? You know why that happened, right? LL rounds are in fact quite lethal. Even moreso if you haven't been trained in how to use them. They can also be lethal to the user when they don't have the desired effect on the target, who probably is not suffering from the same handicap as you.
and knowing you killed some sob
Click to expand...
Using a firearm is using deadly force. If you aren't comfortable with that, or at least accepting of it, maybe you shouldn't have a firearm. You certainly should not be using one as part of your self or home defense plan.
and then having your gun taken for a year or 2
Click to expand...
As opposed to having it taken from you for a year or two for your Agg Assault With A Deadly Weapon trial?
and having to move out temporarily while the "mess" is cleaned.
Click to expand...
It would be better to be out the cost of a shotgun and have to deal with cleaning up the mess than to be out my life or a family member's life because I decided to be cute and shoot Nerf darts at someone who was shooting lead and didn't appreciate the compassionate and orderly side of me that didn't want to burden my id or clean up later.
i'm just curious about it. but i still have 00 buck in my H&R 12g. just in case. it's one i'm "ready to part with"....
Click to expand...
Good call.
I've seen one of the guys that manufactures LL rounds for official use say that a homeowner using them for defensive purposes is not very smart. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've cleaned that up a lot.
LL use is best left to professionals that have been trained in how to use it. They have other people around with non-LL rounds ready to deploy if needed. They are operating under the umbrella of the state. A private citizen using them is still using deadly force, and I don't believe that I've ever seen where use of LL rounds doesn't still meet the standard of discharging a firearm/deadly weapon at someone. Legally, you most likely are not avoiding the lethal force liability. Realistically, you are quite likely putting yourself at a very real disadvantage. In civil terms, you could be exposing yourself to all kinds of problems.
There is no upside to LL rounds that I can think of, even in times of civil unrest.
 
m24, I always appreciate your thorough insight.

I too disagree on the birdshot, Remald700. I understand the concern of over penetration, I have children too, as does m24. In my estimation, any load that will reliably stop a threat, and I mean immediately, will potentially over penetrate wall board and the like. The operative word is reliably. Birdshot is at best a maybe. It may kill, it may take awhile too. Additionally, putting every pellet on target helps prevent over penetration too! ;)

This what I really like the FliteControl loads for!

The responses are in no way a slight to you, but there is so much info available to support the heavier buck shot loads, and should it ever become necessary... I personally wont put my trust, my life or the lives of my family, into birdshot my friend.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top