Home defense.
- Thread starter ramon321
- Start date
bubba in c.a.
.270 WIN
Give us more info. What is home defense to you? Statistically, it means 1 or 2 shots at under 20 feet against lightly armed burglars of unknown motivation. Your situation may vary.
For most people, that means a low recoil or regular recoil 00 buck or 1 buck. Slugs are for penetrating cover or for longer distances, such as 40 yards or more, althought they will certainly work in a pinch for close-up work. 4 buck is the lightest load likely to be recommended by anyone. Birdshot is for birds.
For most people, that means a low recoil or regular recoil 00 buck or 1 buck. Slugs are for penetrating cover or for longer distances, such as 40 yards or more, althought they will certainly work in a pinch for close-up work. 4 buck is the lightest load likely to be recommended by anyone. Birdshot is for birds.
Home defense to me is destroying an intruder that is inside or trying to get inside my home. The only reason I want to take a second shot is if I miss with the first one. I live in a very populated neighborhood in San Jose Ca. I have neighbors all around and think about over penetration.
Most common as mentioned would be 00 buck. We have several posts either up or going up about different loads in the "Ammunition" subforum. Federal 00 buck low recoil with FliteControl is the tightest patterning I have seen yet.
Also, I agree, birdshot is for birds and is not a reliable manstopper. Anything that is, will be more likely to over penetrate. Best advice I can offer, try every load you can for pattern and know which loads fall apart at your ranges, then test for penetration. Know how many stray pellets youll have with a given load and aim! My personal preference for the Federal I mentioned is because it is a more precise load. It has to be aimed and will put every pellet on target.
Also, I agree, birdshot is for birds and is not a reliable manstopper. Anything that is, will be more likely to over penetrate. Best advice I can offer, try every load you can for pattern and know which loads fall apart at your ranges, then test for penetration. Know how many stray pellets youll have with a given load and aim! My personal preference for the Federal I mentioned is because it is a more precise load. It has to be aimed and will put every pellet on target.
Like others have said, OO buck is hard to beat. Most people love the Federal OO with the FliteControl Wad. I have yet to try these out but plan on doing so in the future.
My 590A1 is currently loaded with Hornady Critical Defense with the VersaTite Wad. I haven't fully tested it as much as I would like, but I did have a little review in the Ammunition sub-forum and it patterned VERY well from about 10 yards out.
My 590A1 is currently loaded with Hornady Critical Defense with the VersaTite Wad. I haven't fully tested it as much as I would like, but I did have a little review in the Ammunition sub-forum and it patterned VERY well from about 10 yards out.
blue
20g
I've seen some compelling evidence (ballistic gel) that 4 buck is much more damaging to people than 00. I don't like posting hot links because I can't remember which boards let you and which don't, but just put "WWW." in front of shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958 and you'll get a ton of info. In fact, if you don't want to read a lot don't bother. But if you want to see the damage birdshot up to slugs do on ballistic gel, check it out. I was surprised by a lot of the info.
Another good resource for understanding wall penetration is http://www.theboxotruth.com/
There are far too many variables for any one of us to say, authoritatively, "This is the best round for you". We might suggest a few rounds/loads for you to try to decide for yourself, but it's a very individual choice.
Personally, I like the reduced recoil 00 rounds for potential use inside my home. With that said, knowing your target and what is behind it is FAR more important than what round you use.
There are far too many variables for any one of us to say, authoritatively, "This is the best round for you". We might suggest a few rounds/loads for you to try to decide for yourself, but it's a very individual choice.
Personally, I like the reduced recoil 00 rounds for potential use inside my home. With that said, knowing your target and what is behind it is FAR more important than what round you use.
Mudinyeri said:
I absolutely agree with all this! BoxOTruth, good site! Again I want to emphasize, we can only make load recommendations, but not with any reasonable authority say which is best for any individual. ALWAYS know what is beyond your intended target in any shooting situation.
bubba in c.a.
.270 WIN
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bubba in c.a.
.270 WIN
The big crap shoot!!!
That's what shooting something as complex as the human body is with any ammo. You never know exactly what that bullet is going to do or where it is going to go or what it is going to hit. It's all a big numbers game of increasing your CHANCES of stopping the BG before he does damage to you or yours.
I can almost guarantee you you will stop a BG with the cheapest, weakest birdshot you can find if you hit him in the eyes or throat at 3 feet. Do I advocate it? No, these targets are small, the penetration is poor, and at 3 feet you do not have time to fool around.
Various authorities have ballistic gel, drywall, or statistical results of actual shootouts and come away supporting 00, 1, or 4 buck. From what I have seen, any of these will work at room distances, as will 20 ga. buckshot if for some reason you cannot handle 12 gauge. Even the 410 00 buckshot has sufficient penetration power and is far better than most handgun bullets that one is likely to use for SD/HD. Pick one and pattern it with your gun at the ranges you are most likely to need it on your properties.
As you get away from room distances, especially in a rural property, the bigger buck sizes will keep their velocity longer and are therefore preferred. I recently tried le132 and decided for the meantime I don't need to try anything else. It's good across a room, across my small yard, and up to 30 or 40 yards if some unforeseen circumstance should require it.
Keep in mind that at across the room distances #4 buck has the same pattern as 00 or 1--there is no pattern. It's just a matter of number of pellets and the likely penetration of each pellet. Each packs a huge wallop at room distances.
At some distance, number 4 buck will have too wide a pattern and one would be better off with le132, BUT this is probably out at 20 yards or more which is way long for typical HD shots.
That's not to say le132 its the only good ammo out there. When I rotate thru my supply I may test something else, probably the cheapest name brand ammo I can get locally, but for now le132 will do. I don't know who is making what in #4 buck right now, but I wouldn't surprise me to see some one come out with a low-spread, reduced recoil HD round.
That's what shooting something as complex as the human body is with any ammo. You never know exactly what that bullet is going to do or where it is going to go or what it is going to hit. It's all a big numbers game of increasing your CHANCES of stopping the BG before he does damage to you or yours.
I can almost guarantee you you will stop a BG with the cheapest, weakest birdshot you can find if you hit him in the eyes or throat at 3 feet. Do I advocate it? No, these targets are small, the penetration is poor, and at 3 feet you do not have time to fool around.
Various authorities have ballistic gel, drywall, or statistical results of actual shootouts and come away supporting 00, 1, or 4 buck. From what I have seen, any of these will work at room distances, as will 20 ga. buckshot if for some reason you cannot handle 12 gauge. Even the 410 00 buckshot has sufficient penetration power and is far better than most handgun bullets that one is likely to use for SD/HD. Pick one and pattern it with your gun at the ranges you are most likely to need it on your properties.
As you get away from room distances, especially in a rural property, the bigger buck sizes will keep their velocity longer and are therefore preferred. I recently tried le132 and decided for the meantime I don't need to try anything else. It's good across a room, across my small yard, and up to 30 or 40 yards if some unforeseen circumstance should require it.
Keep in mind that at across the room distances #4 buck has the same pattern as 00 or 1--there is no pattern. It's just a matter of number of pellets and the likely penetration of each pellet. Each packs a huge wallop at room distances.
At some distance, number 4 buck will have too wide a pattern and one would be better off with le132, BUT this is probably out at 20 yards or more which is way long for typical HD shots.
That's not to say le132 its the only good ammo out there. When I rotate thru my supply I may test something else, probably the cheapest name brand ammo I can get locally, but for now le132 will do. I don't know who is making what in #4 buck right now, but I wouldn't surprise me to see some one come out with a low-spread, reduced recoil HD round.
blue said:
This is actually cross-posted in the ammunition sub forum. This is in large part as well as influence from a couple other folks that led me to begin my own testing.
I agree with Bubba and the testing I've done would confirm his post.
m24shooter
.270 WIN
ramon321 said:
Overpenetration is something that a lot of people get entirely too worked up about.
Your Fiocchi will do just fine as long as it patterns well. With buck, you need to worry about how much of your pattern will be on the target and how much may be sailing on by. In CA, you may be more restricted in being able to justify shooting someone outdoors, so that may not be a factor for you. For others, an HD shooting could very well happen outdoors. Even inside, having a pattern with leakers going past your intended target can be very bad.
Your slugs are probably not a real good idea except in limited circumstances if you are concerned about overpenetration. Slugs actually are something to be concerned with as they tend to penetrate two or three times the distance buck will, and the retain a metric buttload of mass and thus momentum.
blue said:
That depends on how you define more damaging. 4B is a marginal load as far as reliably reaching the FBI standard consistently. 1B is generally the smallest buck that will do that, and there are a large number of projos to do it as well. So in terms of wound tracks, 4B and 1B will provide more of that than 00. However, 4B does not have enough mass to push through deeply enough while 1B typically does and there is really no problem as far as 00. The other side of the number of projos is that you have more of them to account for.
Two things stop aggression quickly without relying on voluntary compliance on the part of the attacker: exsanguination and CNS hits. In order to do either of those you have to be able to get through a lot of body structures, and often they are protected by heavy bone. Even if you have a lot of wound tracks, if they do not reach large vessels it can take a long time for hypovolemia to set in, and that means time that the goblin can continue to fight, even if he is literally on his ass.
The important thing to remember with buck shot is patterning and penetration. Fortunately, the same thing that helps one also helps the other. Plated, buffered shot resists deformation in setback upon firing and also as the shot load rattles down the barrel and gets constricted by the bore/choke. Less defomation leads to better patterns, meaning that you have a fairly tight, even pattern. Finally in terms of terminal ballistics the more spherical the shot the better it will be in penetrating. I am using general terms as spheroids do not have good aerodynamics or penetrating capability (they are in effect the same thing, just different media). However once the spheres become deformed they have increased drag, which reduces their ability to penetrate.
So typically buckshot that is hardened, plated, and buffered will do better than that which isn't. If you add in something like the TAP or FliteControl wad cups you get patterns that are even tighter.
The Hornady TAP and Fed FC loads are going to be the tightest loads you will find most likely. Fed is supposed to be producing a 1B FC load, which will dominate if they actually do it. It will combine enough mass to penetrate deeply and enough projos to allow for a lot of wound tracks while keeping them together well enough to hit hard in a very small area.
Knox gelatin powder. It has been quite some time since I have done it. I think it was 50%powder and 50% water…..in fact there are recipes on the net, that’s how I found it. Trick is not getting it get too hot when cooking it on the stove and then having a big refrigerated space……anything the size worth shooting is too big for the fridge. I had access to an empty chest freezer but you have to be careful cause you don’t want to freeze it….bottom line is it was a big pain in the ass. I think there is a few ways to do it but its just real temperature sensitive. I thought it would be fun to play with but since I wasn’t doing research it wasn’t worth it.