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I need some help understanding MOA circle reticles

Discussion in 'Holographic/Red Dot Sights' started by Rossignol, May 27, 2018.

  1. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    Help me with what I’m thinking.

    I’ve been considering a red dot sight on a shotgun. It would be my 835 which I use mostly for varmints, and I try to do some predator hunting too. But I like patterning as much as anything.

    At the top of my list right now is a sight with either a 2 MOA red dot or a 20 MOA circle. If I understand right, that circle will look like approximately 21” at 100 yards and appear smaller on the same target at closer distances? So for example, at 50 yards it should look to be 10-1/2”?

    Here’s why I ask and what I’m thinking.
    When I pattern, I’m using a 10” circle and counting hits only in that circle. I’m not using the traditional wing shooting 30” circle and trying to get a 70% pattern. Although I like John A’s idea better of a 3” circle. But, I pattern that 10” circle to at least 40 yards and if my understanding is right, the 20 MOA reticle should appear to be about 8” at that distance which would work with how I pattern.

    So if I am shooting at a critter, I can put the circle reticle on a shoulder at any given distance and have a reasonable expectation of how many pellets will be on target. If the circle is too big over the target, then I’m out of range.

    Another popular reticle uses a 65 MOA circle dot but I’m thinking that’s too big to be useful in this way.

    Does any of this sound right? Help me where I’m wrong here, please and thank you!
  2. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    A 20 moa circle would cover 20 inches at 100 yards.

    10 inches at 50 yards, 5 inches at 25 yards etc.

    So, while I suck at math, a 20 moa circle would be ~8 inches at 40.

    Is the 20 moa circle like a donut/dot ring or solid dot?

    A 20 moa solid dot at longer ranges would totally obscure much of the target altogether unless you're hunting elephants.

    The 65moa circle dot (eotech style) is a very good shotgun reticle for big stuff (think deer and 2 legged varmints) at usable distances and I believe the larger outside ring makes for some fast shots.

    Bushnell circle/donut style dots are much smaller outside diameter than the Eotechs, and are my favorite electronic reticle on a shotgun. They 20 donut dot are fast on point, and you might laugh and giggle, but I've even killed squirrels using smaller bushnell style 20 moa donut reticle on my 500.

    On the newest semiauto 12 gauge I got, the little solar panel optic has a 5 moa dot, which is pretty good. My eye picks up on it a lot faster than the small 1 or 2 moa red dots and does pretty well for shooting in shotgun range too.

    I also have a millett 5 moa dot on my sks bullpup. Fast target acquisitions, and about as accurate as you're going to get the 7.62x39 to do at 100 yards without magnification anyway. Or, let me rephrase that. It's about as good as I can do.
    Rossignol likes this.
  3. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    Sounds like I’m on the right track with my thinking.

    The reticle I’m looking at is a 20 MOA circle or “donut” reticle. I stated incorrectly that it’s a 2 MOA dot, it’s actually a 3.5 MOA dot, or the 20 MOA ring or donut. I really want a reticle that is as close as possible to how i pattern and I think the larger 65 MOA would be good at close range for a shotgun, I’m still trying to push the range as long as I can.

    I’m curious about the Bushnell you mentioned. I haven’t seen that one. The Bushnell TRS 25 is selling for around $60 now and I’m about ready to buy one. Until I found the 20 MOA circle.
  4. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    I like the 20 moa donut the best for a shotgun. And for the reasons you're looking for.

    The 4 reticle Bushnell Trophy are a great optic for a scattergun and uses regular 30mm scope mounts. (You'll want a low mount).

    I'm sure you can find it cheaper than at the link below, but I wanted to show you what I was talking about.

    https://www.natchezss.com/bushnell-...1x28mm-4-dial-in-red-green-reticle-matte.html

    which optic are you looking at that has the small (20moa) donut reticle?
    Rossignol likes this.
  5. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    Ohhhhh! I gotcha now, i purusing the site now and all I’m see is the new stuff. They do have a very nice red dot that looks similar but it looks like a fixed mount designed to cowittness with AR irons.
  6. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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  7. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    I’ve seen $100 on the 1x28 Bushnell. The new enrage says it comes removable hi mount. I don’t know. I’m gonna try and stay as small as possible, though the 1x28 has some appeal.
  8. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    By guessing, the one I linked above would sit on the gun about like the solar one I have on the semi at the moment.

    [​IMG]

    It's not as compact as the trs25 that I have on my 500, but I can honestly say I'm not much of a fan of the tiny 2 moa dot on the trs25 for a working gun.

    [​IMG]
    Water Monkey and Rossignol like this.
  9. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    Not bad at all!
  10. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    If I could only pick one of the two optics above, it would be the bigger one.

    The TRS25 is more compact, I'll give it that, but that's really all it has going for it because the tiny reticle just isn't as good for me. I like the small donut/dot on a shotgun and for the reasons you mentioned.

    I can't find an old picture of when I had the 4 reticle bushnell trophy on my 500. But I liked it.

    I don't know anything about the brand that I'm about to link, or whether how long it'll hold up to a shotgun, but it is close to the same style as the bushnell if you're wanting to experiment on the cheap, give it a whirl.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/PHANTOM-Re...m=171967038184&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982
    Rossignol likes this.
  11. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    Also nice!

    This has been helpful. I really want to stay close to that 20/25 MOA circle. Preferably low, but if I have to I can add to my comb height. I don’t mind spending a little money, but not Eotech or Aimpoint kind of money.

    It looks like there are only 2 options really with that circle. The armasight mcs and the Bushnell trophy 1x28.
  12. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ .50 BMG Supporter

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    10,018
    I have never wanted any kind of scope or electric sight on my shotguns, but now you guys have got me thinking.

    I shot my buddies new Glock 9mm with the integrated laser sight last week, and I was very impressed at how easy it was to aim.

    But I sure didn't like that extra lump sticking up on top of the gun. OTOH, I was certainly better at it than shooting my 45 with black Iron Sights.

    The one consumer-grade electronic gunsight I do own, I had a bad experience with.

    The Recoil from anything larger than a 22 causes it to increase the brightness with every shot and after three steps max it turns itself off.

    That left me with the feeling that if I cannot afford really durable military grade Hardware, there's no sense of putting such on a shotgun, or any gun with serious recoil.

    But if I could get a really durable one for reasonable money I might still go for it.
  13. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    I have had a few junky electronic dots. Even a "big brand" can develop problems, but that's why there is a warranty.

    I have used a lot of other optics that I have not had a single problem with and that's also with a lot of rounds sent downrange.

    The 4 reticle bushnell trophy that I mentioned earlier, was used on my 500 for many years of service and it's still going. I just moved it to a different gun to try the smaller TRS25, which is OK, just that I'm not a fan of the small dot.

    If someone were to make one in that small size frame with a donut reticle for under $100, I'd own several. Would probably start selling off my old higher end optics for them.
  14. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ .50 BMG Supporter

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    That's the one I bought! $99, and does a donut or a DOT or a little X.

    I am sorry I ever even picked the thing up.

    But this stuff is always evolving, so surely you'll have better luck.
  15. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    I once tried a Bushnell trophy red dot with a fixed mount set for absolute cowittness with AR irons on a shotgun. It worked. I think it’s replacement is the Bushnell incinerator mentioned earlier but it looks like the incinerator base is removable. I’m looking for more info before I try something like that again.

    It worked. It worked well and held up to shotgun recoil. But imagine 1 oz slug recoil without a proper cheek weld. It looked kinda cool and it did it’s job. Worked with buckshot pretty well too. But I didn’t use it like that for long.

    The donut ring is the direction I wanna go for sure. I’ll pay for what I want. I want small and as low a profile as possible. I have that Triad stock pack on all my long guns, and each one comes with inserts to raise the comb height so even if the optic is a little tall, I can work with it.

    For my purposes to 40 yards or so, I think the 20 to 25 MOA is gonna be the best option.

    At 25 yards, most of my pattern is about 8” with 3” #4 buck. The reticle would appear to be about 5” in diameter on target. That works excellently with putting the reticle on the shoulder of a critter.
    John A. likes this.
  16. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    I just received a reply from a vendor on amazon. I asked about the two piece base on the new Bushnell incinerate. He said the riser is removable which makes this sight with the 25 MOA donut ring a contender for a shotgun.

    I might go ahead and shake this one down. It’s a decent price, Bushnell is decent entry level stuff and the riser means it can be swapped to an AR or similar platform for absolute cowittness and then a magnifier can be added too.
  17. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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  18. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    Give it a good run and let us know what's up with it.
  19. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

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    It’s bigger than what I want, but it’s also less expensive.

    Another point of note, which may or may not be of interest to anyone, is that the rear sight is cut to Glock specs. It has “irons” across the top. The rear sight is removable and anything that works on Glock will work on this. Don’t know if that’s something that would ever be useful or not.
  20. MikeD

    MikeD I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    I really like the TRS-25 and the Primary Arms Micro Dot. I have the trs-25 mounted to a cantilever slug barrel I re-purposed as a turkey barrel.

    The smaller red dots work better the further forward you can mount them. That way your eyes are already lined up on the target and you are not searching as much for the dot
    Rossignol likes this.

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