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Less than Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Nick Burkhardt

.270 WIN
I know I will probably take some hits for wanting to chamber a Less that Lethal shell first in our new Mossberg 500, but here is our rationalization.

First, we do not live in a high crime or gang infested area and home invasions just don’t happen here in our smallish town. The most likely intruder, and the reason my wife said “I think we should get a gun”, would be a 15-25 year old male looking to grab electronics to pawn for drugs, not a murderer/rapist/kidnapper.

Second, we are both new gun owners and I can foresee five instances where a rubber star or rubber buckshot chambered first would have advantages over 00 Buckshot:

One, there is an accidental discharge that goes out the window and hits a neighbor or someone on the street.

Two, that bump in the night is one of our teenagers or their idiot friends sneaking in or out of our house and we unintentionally shoot them.

Three, there really is an intruder in the house late at night and our first shot misses (nerves, inexperience or the bad guy ducks) and the shot goes out the front door into the bedroom window of the honor student across the street.

Four, a real intruder is in the house late at night, advancing on one of us, but second thoughts about using lethal force prevents firing the shotgun.

Which leads to five, the shotgun winds up in the hands of the bad guy who uses it on a family member.

My wife brought up number four which raised the question “why bother having the shotgun if you are not going to use it?” She also said that she is not cleaning hundreds of lead birdshot pellets out of our living room, so birdshot is out.

I showed her a few videos of “volunteers” getting shot with beanbags, rubber slugs and low recoil Lightfield Stars and she said “Yeah I could shoot someone with that”. Also, that honor student’s mother would be on the phone with 911 thirty seconds after hearing a gun go off across the street, so I am not worried about not having a full tube of 00 Buck. If it does become necessary to fire a lethal round, the first round shows to the police and DA that our intent was not murderous.

The Mossberg 500 is kept in our bedroom in a pin-code locked fire-resistant gun safe with an empty chamber, the safety off. It will be loaded with four Buckshot rounds down the tube and a Less that Lethal shell on top to be chambered first. The sidesaddle with have extra clearly marked Buckshot and Less that Lethal shells which can be port loaded to replace the first shot if deemed necessary.

With all the above information considered what are your recommendations for a first Less that Lethal shell? Beanbag, rubber buckshot, Lightfield Star or other? I realize that these ammunition may be lethal if fired at distances less than six feet, but I believe that anyone who gets that close to my family deserves severe bodily harm.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Nick~

The fact that you and your wife are discussing this between yourselves in an intelligent manner is very inspiring.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

What concerns me with this approach, is the chance that if it was a bad guy and you just run him off with a rubber bullet, that he may decide to pay another visit an hour, or a week, or a year later. Possibly with some of his buddies. Many of these types of people are big on revenge. Personally I'd rather not have to move, or spend the rest of my life worrying about whether he might come back and set the house on fire out of revenge.

PS: There's an old saying in the military (especially among fighter pilots): "Honor the threat". Which means you don't give your opponent a second chance to come after you.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Howdy.
All of those are good reasons. My wife feels the same way. I have not tried out those LTL loads, so I'm interested in hearing this discussion as well.
There's a member here who is affiliated with Lightfeild. (I think) maybe they could shed some light on the rounds they have.....I need to figure out who they are and send a pm to them to get them involved in this topic.

Also...assuming you do have an "encounter", you should have a set of hand cuffs or industrial zip ties handy to keep them detained till the LEO get there.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

ripjack13 said:
Howdy.
All of those are good reasons. My wife feels the same way. I have not tried out those LTL loads, so I'm interested in hearing this discussion as well.
There's a member here who is affiliated with Lightfeild. (I think) maybe they could shed some light on the rounds they have.....I need to figure out who they are and send a pm to them to get them involved in this topic.

Also...assuming you do have an "encounter", you should have a set of hand cuffs or industrial zip ties handy to keep them detained till the LEO get there.

While one of you stands over them, SG at their head and states that the next round is not a beanbag...
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Found out it is actually a vendor here...Lightfeild. I sent em a pm asking them to join in on the discussion at hand.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Hi guys; my 2 cents. Firstly, everybody needs a plan that works for them personally, that they believe in and will carry out if need be. We hear them all and very few are the same. We often find folks who want a gun for proctection but really don't want to kill somebody. Then we talk to those with concerns about over penetration and hitting innocents in this room or the next one. There are also recoil sensitivity and confidence issues.

Our H-D ammo was designed to send a painful message with minimal risk of penetrating into the next room. When you shoot somebody with a rubber slug, they have no idea it was rubber, it hurts like hell and all they know is they were shot. The psycological message is strong and can be followed up with whatever is next in the mag... rubber or lead. In terms of recoil, our 12ga rubber has the recoil equivilent of a .22 mag, so those who are small framed or recoil sensitive can be accomadated in that respect. We also make the only .410 and 20ga rubber available anywhere for those with 45/.410 derringers or a Judge as well as the youth-sized 20 guages out there.

There is much more than these two paragraphs to talk about. My cell is 800-490-1930 if anybody has a serious question.

Thanks,
Neil Keegstra
Lightfield Ammo
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

I see the benefit for less lethal ammo in some situations, no one wants to take anothers life but if I my life is in danger my immediate task is to neutralize that threat as quickly and effectively as possible. I'm not sure I see non-lethal ammo as an option in that particular scenario.

I'm curious to read others opinions on this.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Respect the fact that you are exercising every aspect of "where the round lands", but that being said...My family comes first. I am always between any entrance and my family, so I know they will not be hit by crossfire. I have a newborn and he is always latched to his mother so if I locate her I know he is there. I am not a harsh man by any means, but you come into my home regardless of the reason i.e. take a TV, or try to cause bodily harm to someone in my home you will be greeted with a RACK of my 500 just to give you a reality check and followed by 00 Buck.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

To each their own, I do have to say when I read posts like this they almost make me feel bad. I keep my shotgun with 00 Buck , chambered, safety on, no lock, no safe. I am one of those that see no civilian use for LTL.


Nick Burkhardt said:
One, there is an accidental discharge that goes out the window and hits a neighbor or someone on the street. .

Anything is possible, but training and good firearms etiquette will prevent this 100%

Nick Burkhardt said:
Two, that bump in the night is one of our teenagers or their idiot friends sneaking in or out of our house and we unintentionally shoot them. .

Your teenagers should be well aware of your new found need for a firearm. You should work out a system of ID with your family members, also a light on an HD gun is IMO paramount for target ID….again training and discipline.

Nick Burkhardt said:
Three, there really is an intruder in the house late at night and our first shot misses (nerves, inexperience or the bad guy ducks) and the shot goes out the front door into the bedroom window of the honor student across the street. .

Again anything is possible, what about that second shot of buck because like you mentioned you probably missed the LTL shot….that second round is no less deadly than if it were the first.

Nick Burkhardt said:
Four, a real intruder is in the house late at night, advancing on one of us, but second thoughts about using lethal force prevents firing the shotgun.
……you shoot him with a rubber bullet and he whips out a gun and kills you because you gave him the opportunity to do so, pissed him off and he may even think he had been shot for real for a second. Always bank a bad guy in your house with a gun will fight back…..

Nick Burkhardt said:
Which leads to five, the shotgun winds up in the hands of the bad guy who uses it on a family member. .
You get shot with a rubber bullet, everyone after that plus yourself buys lead


Nick Burkhardt said:
My wife brought up number four which raised the question “why bother having the shotgun if you are not going to use it?” .
You wife has a great point

Nick Burkhardt said:
I showed her a few videos of “volunteers” getting shot with beanbags, rubber slugs and low recoil Lightfield Stars and she said “Yeah I could shoot someone with that”. Also, that honor student’s mother would be on the phone with 911 thirty seconds after hearing a gun go off across the street, so I am not worried about not having a full tube of 00 Buck. If it does become necessary to fire a lethal round, the first round shows to the police and DA that our intent was not murderous. .
The thought is never murderous, its defensive, if preservation of life……I have seen a couple people in real life take rubber and still have plenty of fight in them…you bought a machine designed to kill. There are lots of things out there designed to wound, but your shotgun isn’t one.


Nick Burkhardt said:
The Mossberg 500 is kept in our bedroom in a pin-code locked fire-resistant gun safe with an empty chamber, the safety off. It will be loaded with four Buckshot rounds down the tube and a Less that Lethal shell on top to be chambered first. The sidesaddle with have extra clearly marked Buckshot and Less that Lethal shells which can be port loaded to replace the first shot if deemed necessary. .

I like the thought of you securing your weapon due to your kids having access.
How long does it take you to get the gun out and rack a round, assess your situation, ID your potential target , you under stress, pin code, load the gun Id target, decide to shoot or not? …..all these decisions need to be made before there is less than 20 feet between you and the threat or you have lost unless you are a good grappler or can scrap well, possibly over the possession of the gun , or they might have their own.
How long does it take a human to close the distance from the closest outside window or door to your location ?

Just a couple thoughts from the pro lethal side of the fence. Dosent matter that you think you already know the type of person that is going to break into your house, when it comes to your life and the lives of your loved ones, plan for the worst and hope for the best …..IMO you aren’t planning for the worst
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Great points Oli

I'd add, if someone is brave enough to enter your home knowing you are probably home. They have little regard for your well being. A lot of rape or murders come from botched burglaries.

If I ever had to take up a firearm in a defensive position it would be to shoot a real round because it just got real!
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Does Lightfield not advertise on this forum that they offer a safer alternative for home defense?
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

nitesite said:
Does Lightfield not advertise on this forum that they offer a safer alternative for home defense?

actually they did post,look up this page a bit.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

old mossy said:
nitesite said:
Does Lightfield not advertise on this forum that they offer a safer alternative for home defense?

actually they did post,look up this page a bit.

Yep; I did see that. Thank you, pardner. I was trying to point other members toward any paid advertising.

FWIW: discharging a firearm is (by defintion) creating the use of deadly force, regardless of the projectile or the intended consequence.

LESS Lethal is not the same as NON-Lethal.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

GunnyGene said:
What concerns me with this approach, is the chance that if it was a bad guy and you just run him off with a rubber bullet, that he may decide to pay another visit an hour, or a week, or a year later. Possibly with some of his buddies. Many of these types of people are big on revenge. Personally I'd rather not have to move, or spend the rest of my life worrying about whether he might come back and set the house on fire out of revenge.

Or simply confronting the intruder with a shotgun in hand would cause him to flee and not return. We mostly have scavengers instead of predators around here looking for a quick and easy unearned buck without confrontation.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Nick Burkhardt said:
GunnyGene said:
What concerns me with this approach, is the chance that if it was a bad guy and you just run him off with a rubber bullet, that he may decide to pay another visit an hour, or a week, or a year later. Possibly with some of his buddies. Many of these types of people are big on revenge. Personally I'd rather not have to move, or spend the rest of my life worrying about whether he might come back and set the house on fire out of revenge.

Or simply confronting the intruder with a shotgun in hand would cause him to flee and not return. We mostly have scavengers instead of predators around here looking for a quick and easy unearned buck without confrontation.

Do they wear a sign? ;)
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

Well, Nick, everyone has to make the decision that best fits their own persona. Or "To each his own", as my mother used to say. Personally, I have to go with oli on this one. If you purchase a firearm to protect what is yours, (your family or yourself) then be absolutely prepared to terminate the threat. If you intend to "convince" the individual doing the threatening to leave you alone, buy a big, mean and loud dog and let him make "the decision"! But to purchase a firearm with no intent to use it for it's designed purpose reminds me of a bully who doesn't really want to fight............but just look mean. Intimidation doesn't always end confrontations........but lead in the belly does. If a less than lethal shotgun shell were all that effective, I think our military personnel would use them.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

lol, Mr Wallace is lucky he is alive to tell his tall tale......the cops took his gun, ok.... they took his rubber bullets, ok.....the cops didn’t know they existed , yeah right.
One very important point in the article," the guy blew right by me, then the round may have set in".....lucky the guy went by him and didn’t stop to stuff that shotgun up his arse, next time it will be a seasoned vet of the streets and not such an easy win, as he will stop and beat that old man over the head with his own gun, before the round "sets in"
I find it interesting you think you know who you’re going to be confronting, impossible. All the insight and blogs in the world will never let you see the future, something else that would be wise, never underestimate you opponent.

Am not belittling your situation or your decision but I wouldn’t feel right if I didn’t offer the .02 of the other side of the coin.....no one wants to kill anyone, but I like to think we want to die ourselves less. Have you considered a taser gun, mace something? Because you really sound like you’re on the fence about having to use your weapon in its intended roll …..There are tons of alternatives to a firearm for people in your situation.
 
Re: Less that Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

If they are coming into into my house im just going to assume they are armed and dangerous. Take the threat out and let god decide what to do with em.

Sent from behind the hood of a long nose pete.
 
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