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lights: target ID or Weapon?

blue

blue

20g
I'm just thinking out loud, and I know there are folks here with mil and le experience who can answer this.

If lights are for target ID shouldn't I have a red or green? I understand turning on a light twice as bright as the sun in a bad-guy's face will blind him, but when I turn it back off to not be a target I'm night blind too. Wouldn't it be better to lose the disabling factor of a bright white for the ability to see when I cycle the light off?
 
Minimize the disabling factor by pointing the light at the floor. That way you're not looking directly into the brightest part of the beam.

I also went through some training where they had us close our strong eye when we switched on the light. When I'm shooting defensive drills I shoot with both eyes open so this messed with me a bit. YMMV
 
As Mud said you can close one eye or bounce the light. If you close one eye, you need to train with that a lot to make sure you remember to do it as it is counterintuitive.
This is also why it is a good idea to not go with a light that is rated at 1 megaassload Lumens. At around 120-150 Lumens or so you start getting diminished returns as far as disorienting the target, and actually start working against yourself because you are putting out so much light that the scatter from the walls, the target, the Great Pyramids, and the International Space Station is coming back at you.
 
I've also thought about putting a light on my mossy but I have one problem. Although the light allows me easily to see what's infront of me, doesn't it also allow everyone else without lights to see my position instantly? I'll let my eyes adjust and lay low, the bad guys can turn on the light so I can locate them better than they can locate me.
 
That's why if you are going to run a light you need to get training in how to use it properly and practice with it.
The light is for momentary on, target ID, and then off. You don't leave it on, you don't use it for navigation. It should only be on for a very, very short burst. You don't leave it on.
Since you would be the one operating the light, you're going to know when it is coming on. They won't.
 
I definitely agree. So like any other weapon related item, practice and proper training are key to highly efficient use. I'd love to take a tactical training course sometime but as of now I am just too busy and too broke, but that doesn't stop me from future plans. Good advice m24
 
You might want to check out the piece that I put together a while back about operating in low-light conditions: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=317

It's no substitute for training and drilling, but it covers most of the basics.
 
So far the suggestions are a great way to avoid some of the downsides of a bright white light. And thanks. I played around with bouncing light instead of focusing it last night, and it does help. But I'm still not seeing a reason to use white light, other than as a blinding tool on the target.

I mean, I use a green light for hunting and fishing to preserve my night vision. I looking to find a solid reason not to in HD/tactical. Plus the bad guy might think "Oh crap! Green light! I saw that when I played Splinter Cell! I'm out of here!" :lol:
 
I have a TLR-2 on my G21 mainly for the laser, but the light is available. I also have a 126 lumen tactical light w/ thumb activator on the forearm on my 500 Persuader with no laser. I'm not thinking of ID of a target so much since it's only me in the house (yes, I will be sure of my target before pulling the trigger). Also, between the two, I figure a red dot dancing on one's chest is much more intimidating than blinding them (maybe I'm watching too many movies on this one, ha).
So I have come to this conclusion: I don't want to use a light to "blind" the BG because it may not work or it may also destroy my vision, and if it does work, what do we do next? Frankly, I'd rather just shoot them and end the problem. But I figure a light might help 'illuminate' the situation if that is needed since I live in the country and it's pretty dark out here, especially during a new moon or overcast skies.
Another thought - I have motion sensor lights on the front and back of the house, and that is going to affect anyone's night vision that comes up to the house - and if I'm up when the lights come on, it tells me something is moving around, but it's usually a racoon. :D
 
JSDinTexas said:
Also, between the two, I figure a red dot dancing on one's chest is much more intimidating than blinding them (maybe I'm watching too many movies on this one, ha).
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From a practical perspective, some guy cranked up on crack probably isn't going to notice a red dot dancing on his chest. Personally, I wouldn't rely on a laser, a light or the "racka" sound of a pump gun to intimidate a home invader.

Philosophically, if I had lasers on any of my guns, my finger would be squeezing the trigger a split second after the laser found its target. Don't point a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy and don't hesitate to destroy whatever your point your gun at.

I might give a guy a warning with my weapon at low-ready, but I wouldn't point it at him unless my next action was to shoot him.

YMMV
 
This brings up another thing with weapon mounted lights. When you use the light to identify something, you are also pointing a deadly weapon at that "something". See the potential for problems, if that something happens to be a police officer, fireman, or the neighbor's half-wit kid? It could get real touchy real quick.
Not pooh-poohing mounted lights, just pointing out some of the training issues/risks in using one.
I'll eventually get one, but meanwhile my main strategy is to have lights in the yard, both electric-eye and motion detector, and try to stay in the dark myself.
 
bubba, I'm not personally a big fan of weapon-mounted lights, but if you utilize the bounce technique you may be able to avoid pointing your weapon at an unidentified target. As you've suggested, this could still pose a problem if it's dark enough and the neighbor's half-wit kit happens to be on the floor that you're utilizing to bounce the light.
 
I have little experience with tactical lights , but the one little one I bought is very directional--I get little damage to my night vision. Same same my 3 cell maglite I upgraded to LED-- a lot of light but it's going in the other direction.

Don't underestimate the disorienting effect of these lights, even the entry-level ones--they will temporarily blind a BG. Compared to a red dot on his chest which he may not see or may chose to ignore, this is a definite addition to one's bag of tricks.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Last week I put up one more electric eye controlled light on the back of one house. It provides no visibility for me, but the reliable neighbor now has a clear view of my back yard. I got the lazies on this one a bought a unit that has the photo cell, light fixture with plastic globe, and 13 watt fluorescent in one package. My next project is to install a foto cell on the front of the house and run it to small florescent s on the remaining 3 sides. You can now find electric eyes that are rated for florescent, giving you the choice of compacts of whatever wattage you want--I use 5 and 7 watters mostly because i don't want the yard lit up like a Christmas tree. I've even experimented with some 1.5 watt LED bulbs, which are kind of interesting. Next, I'm going to put up a motion detector light on my parking spot/driveway. Anything that may help convince the BG to go elsewhere is a good idea. I have some neighbors with absolutely no night lighting.
 
I haven’t thought about a lot of these points. Learning some things and wondering about others. I come to these places for information share.

So far it sounds like you guys are talking about using them outside and I only really have thought of them for inside use…so I can see what you mean about pointing at some little kid or something. I think outside in the dark I would naturally try to sneak and observe try to use ambient light and use weapon light as last resort or last minute…more than likely try to use my voice to feel out the situation.

Inside I always thought I would not navigate with the light but rather turn it in to ID target. If friendly don’t shoot, someone you care about just got a gun pointed at them but they didn’t get shot so… Not too big a deal to me obviously in my house unannounced

If a bad guy, I always thought I wouldn’t be turning off the light till the battle was over. Yeah maybe it gives them something to shoot at but it seems to me that you would have the drop on them. Guess I never thought about night vision in the house because I never thought about turning the light out. If I have a light on the end of a shotgun pointed a positively ID’d armed bad guy and I don’t end it right then and there then I guess I deserve what I get.

If unarmed and didn’t want to go face down till the cops showed up I’d probably give them the butt stroking of their life or they would get away and hopefully pissing down their leg with no night vision never to return and I would have a good description for the cops
So for the sake of learning tell me what’s wrong with my thought process tactically not ethically ;)
 
oli700 said:
Inside I always thought I would not navigate with the light but rather turn it in to ID target. If friendly don’t shoot, someone you care about just got a gun pointed at them but they didn’t get shot so… Not too big a deal to me obviously in my house unannounced
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It may be wrong of me to think this way, but I have long told friends and family they have no business coming into my home at night after we have gone to bed and to do so would end badly. NO ONE belongs in my house after hours. As far as target ID, I can see better in the dark so long as I'm not switching back and forth, we have night lights here and there... Now, my children are getting older and are at the age they may start thinkin about sneaking in and out of the house (I was at their age). These thoughts and concerns about ID will have to be revisited with regard to my children.
 
Rossignol said:
oli700 said:
Inside I always thought I would not navigate with the light but rather turn it in to ID target. If friendly don’t shoot, someone you care about just got a gun pointed at them but they didn’t get shot so… Not too big a deal to me obviously in my house unannounced
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It may be wrong of me to think this way, but I have long told friends and family they have no business coming into my home at night after we have gone to bed and to do so would end badly. NO ONE belongs in my house after hours. As far as target ID, I can see better in the dark so long as I'm not switching back and forth, we have night lights here and there... Now, my children are getting older and are at the age they may start thinkin about sneaking in and out of the house (I was at their age). These thoughts and concerns about ID will have to be revisited with regard to my children.
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Let's say there's an emergency and a neighbor comes to your house in the middle of the night ... or someone who's had a car accident ... or a teenage girl who's walking home at night and some guy starts to chase her ....

There are just too many possibilities for me to use terms like never, always, etc.
 
Mudinyeri said:
Let's say there's an emergency and a neighbor comes to your house in the middle of the night ... or someone who's had a car accident ... or a teenage girl who's walking home at night and some guy starts to chase her ....

There are just too many possibilities for me to use terms like never, always, etc.
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Well, I assume all the individuals would knock or ring the bell, not pull a B&E to ask for help. And you know what, I've taught my wife and kids to not open the door in situations like that. They will make a call for you. I don't have the "teenage girl who's walking home at night and some guy starts to chase her" type situation, as I live pretty far down a private road that goes nowhere. No we're not rich. Where I am private road means "County does not maintain" :lol:
 
blue said:
Mudinyeri said:
Let's say there's an emergency and a neighbor comes to your house in the middle of the night ... or someone who's had a car accident ... or a teenage girl who's walking home at night and some guy starts to chase her ....

There are just too many possibilities for me to use terms like never, always, etc.
Click to expand...

Well, I assume all the individuals would knock or ring the bell, not pull a B&E to ask for help. And you know what, I've taught my wife and kids to not open the door in situations like that. They will make a call for you. I don't have the "teenage girl who's walking home at night and some guy starts to chase her" type situation, as I live pretty far down a private road that goes nowhere. No we're not rich. Where I am private road means "County does not maintain" :lol:
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I'm kinda out of the way too, and while I understand what youre saying Toby, this again becomes a case by case basis. We're on a dead end street, it literally just ends into the woods, not finished off and no curb, it turns into gravel and stops. There really shouldnt even be people walking around down here anyway. There is always a chance of a similar scenario to what you describe though, and like Blue mentioned, it shouldnt be a case where a person helps themselves into my home. Also as mentioned, the kids know to wake me. The dogs also do an excellent job at sounding the alarm when things arent "right" or are out of place. I use them to identify and distinguish between friend and foe as well. They respond differently to women and children too, they arent agressive.

I'm not a fan of outdoor lights, when they come on, I cant see beyond the light. If theyre off, even on a cloudy night, I can see my entire yard area and even the edge of the woods.
 
I lived way out in the middle of nowhere, when I was in High School.
One night, we were awakened by someone pounding on our front door, nobody should have been around. The State Park I lived in closed at dark during the Winter.
It turned out, the woman at our door had accepted a ride from a co-worker, he'd brought her way out in the middle of nowhere, to have his way with her. She got away before things got really bad for her. Ours was the only house on a three mile long road. The next closest house was 2 1/2 miles away. She had no clue where she was.

She'd made it back to pavement and started walking. She dove in the ditch everytime she saw headlights, not knowing if it was him. Finally, she saw our house, which was at the end of a 1/4 mile long driveway.
Our barking dog did not deter her from approaching the house.

So, even if you are in the middle of nowhere, you can get visitors who have a good reason to be there.

The happy ending was, the guy pulled down our driveway and was just sitting there, about 100 yards from the house, when the Park Rangers, State Troopers and Sheriff's Deputies all arrived.
 
Gumby, I agree and understand, the scenario isnt outside the realm of possibility. My point in what I've mentioned and not really even a disagreement in philosophy, is that a pounding on the door with dogs barking is quite a bit different than someone bursting through the door. Bursting through the door or into the house in some way will elicit a different response.

I perceive pounding or banging as distress, and helping ones self into my home as a threat.
 
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