Mass vs. velocity for "stopping power"

[Tom396]

First off, I understand that many folks have a hard time even discussing "stopping power". As in, it doesn't exist. It's all about shot placement, it's all about follow up shots, etc., etc. For the purpose of this discussion, how about we keep it about a single shot to the center mass of a totally drugged out, physically fit, very large male, in a murderous rage.

Do you think a hollow point projectile weighing 135 grains and traveling 1200 fps or one weighing 180 grains and traveling 1000 fps would be more likely to stop the threat? And yes, I acknowledge that neither one might get it done. Also, my primary plan would be to travel at several feet per second away from the threat. Take care. Tom Worthington

 

[GunnyGene]

I doubt either would "stop" your badguy. At least not instantaneously. It likely would kill him from bleeding out, but that could take up to a couple minutes or longer. He may fall down within a second or 2 of being hit, but it would not 'knock him down'. The one shot that would be a nearly instantaneous stopper would be a bullet in the base of the skull that severs the spinal cord or does severe damage to the brain stem.

A shot to the forehead may or may not work. There are plenty of cases where people have survived a large nail or other object penetrating the front of the brain.

 

[mingaa]

#1 has 432 lbs. of muzzle energy
#2 has 400 lbs of muzzle energy

I have a 40 S&W round developed that hits 1200 fps with a 180gr. JHP producing 576 ft. lbs of muzzle energy (7.7gr Longshot + a 4.5" barrel). That and a beer will get you in a good argument or produce a really long thread on a gunforum.

Sorry — what I meant to say was "shot placement" hehe!

 

[mingaa]

I doubt either would "stop" your badguy. At least not instantaneously. It likely would kill him from bleeding out, but that could take up to a couple minutes or longer. He may fall down within a second or 2 of being hit, but it would not 'knock him down'. The one shot that would be a nearly instantaneous stopper would be a bullet in the base of the skull that severs the spinal cord or does severe damage to the brain stem.

A shot to the forehead may or may not work. There are plenty of cases where people have survived a large nail or other object penetrating the front of the brain.

Yep the body is built to survive. The important stuff in the brain is NOT in the front. A labotomy will slow you down but it will not stop or kill you!!

 

[Tom396]

#1 has 432 lbs. of muzzle energy
#2 has 400 lbs of muzzle energy

I have a 40 S&W round developed that hits 1200 fps with a 180gr. JHP producing 576 ft. lbs of muzzle energy (7.7gr Longshot + a 4.5" barrel). That and a beer will get you in a good argument or produce a really long thread on a gunforum.

Sorry — what I meant to say was "shot placement" hehe!

Your muzzle energy numbers seem to suggest the lighter load is going to hit harder, but that it'll a close call. Is that fairly accurate?

You have "developed"? As in one of your own custom reloads?

How about an even more extreme example? Only 60 grains, but 2000 fps?! http://www.sgammo.com/product/surpl...berty-ammunition-civil-defense-hollow-point-a How is that for a "magic bullet"?

 

[mingaa]

60gr at 2,000fps = 533 ft. lbs of energy. A .223 AR round might make 3,000fps with 60gr and that will yield 1199 ft. lbs of energy.

A 40gr 22LR at 1,200fps will push 128 ft. lbs.

There are a whole bunch of new ammo on shelves going with the 'light and fast' approach. But the search for the MAGIC BULLET continues.

Yes - the 40 S&W round that I shoot is a hand load starting from powder manufacturer's guidelines. 7.5gr of Longshot powder at a given overall round length (how deeply is the bullet seated vs room for powder effects pressure) is supposed to send the bullet at 1150 fps. That is tested in a 4" barrel. The gun I used has a 4.5" barrel and the extra barrel dwell time (hot gasses pushing longer) + the extra .2 grains of powder produced a nice hot round for the big bullet. It is one of my keepers!!

BTW - there are ammo energy calculators all over the net. I'm using this one to provide the appearance of mathematical abilities. Truth is it is "Google-Fu" at work, a valuable skill in today's world!!

Hope I'm being helpful!

 

[oli700]

Lol, many have tried to figure this out, like the Americans and the Russians AR vs AK
Shooting an SKS a couple weeks ago and it was seriously chipping away at some stuff, hitting real hard, but it couldn’t match the sheer speed, accuracy and follow up shots of the AR …..or range.
In a handgun I like a happy medium, since they are not a rifle and need all the help they can get I choose a middle ground on loads I get as heavy as I can and still reach a respectable speed.
They all do the job but some do it better……the trick with handguns is to get heavy and fast
They all kill but do it in their own way.
Although it appears the lighter bullet hits “harder”, it will not penetrate as deeply.
Take the 22…..40gr at 1200fps. It penetrates and has the capacity to kill. Put another 2000fps to that and it will create massive damage
Mingaa……1200fps 180gr from a 40S&W ? …..that’s 10mm country.
You must have special chamber support and recoil spring in that smoke wagon I know 1200fps with 180’s in my Glock 10mm are starting to pooch the case and before my recoil spring change would launch brass about 20 yards in all directions lol
When they invented the 10mm they strived for 200gr at 1250fps and that was breaking 1911’s , FBI couldn’t handle so they reduced it and invented the 40S&W……be careful

 

[aksavanaman]

Personally I think it's all about the application and less about caliber and grain choice. If you take a real hot 9mm +p+ with a good expansion it can come close to .45acp power. I think for human targets... the more blood loss you can inflict the better i.e. the biggest hole you can make and be comfortable shooting it. So if that's a .380 Gold Dots for your wife because she knows that's what she can hit with then that's the choice.

Honestly, I'd feel comfortable carrying any of the common calibers, as long as I had quality expanding bullets that fed realiably in the platform I was shooting.

For four legged critters, where bones and hide and fat are at play.... hard'n heavy is my choice, that's where penetration is key over expansion.

 

[mingaa]

Lol, many have tried to figure this out, like the Americans and the Russians AR vs AK
Shooting an SKS a couple weeks ago and it was seriously chipping away at some stuff, hitting real hard, but it couldn’t match the sheer speed, accuracy and follow up shots of the AR …..or range.
In a handgun I like a happy medium, since they are not a rifle and need all the help they can get I choose a middle ground on loads I get as heavy as I can and still reach a respectable speed.
They all do the job but some do it better……the trick with handguns is to get heavy and fast
They all kill but do it in their own way.
Although it appears the lighter bullet hits “harder”, it will not penetrate as deeply.
Take the 22…..40gr at 1200fps. It penetrates and has the capacity to kill. Put another 2000fps to that and it will create massive damage
Mingaa……1200fps 180gr from a 40S&W ? …..that’s 10mm country.
You must have special chamber support and recoil spring in that smoke wagon I know 1200fps with 180’s in my Glock 10mm are starting to pooch the case and before my recoil spring change would launch brass about 20 yards in all directions lol
When they invented the 10mm they strived for 200gr at 1250fps and that was breaking 1911’s , FBI couldn’t handle so they reduced it and invented the 40S&W……be careful

I came to that load slowly and Longshot is still below max pressure at their max 7.5gr load. I was ready to back off at any time but never got a pressure indication at all. Primers look fine and my calipers worked overtime as i picked up brass one at a time LOOKING for trouble. I was looking for a launch pad for a Magtech bonded JHP that I had access to - the load was spec. for a Hornady XTP that perform identically. I don't shoot that a lot - I have created a cache for the future when something big needs killin'

The round is shootable - accurate. I shot some factory 9BPLE recently that I'd be less inclined to carry. That's +p+ on the box & 'LEO' - it chrono-ed 1350 out of my Glock 34 (5.3" barrel).

I hear what you are saying brother. I have a number of 9 & 40 rounds across the range from 'just makes minor power factor 9mm' to just makes major power factor 40' — and when I explore upper limits it's chrono, calipers and NEVER kid yourself — baby steps all the way.

I started a new 12G slug round yesterday and had some cycling troubles with my 930 BUT the Alliant e3 powder looks promising AND it meters low which is a plus!! http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/e3.aspx

 

[oli700]

your having entirely too much fun !

 

[mingaa]

your having entirely too much fun !

Well right now I'm stalled out on a job I'm hoping to get BUT the format is a full RFQ format - looking out the window at a great spring day. Now that I'm posting more on forums than I am writing the RFQ I do believe it is time for a trip to the real world!!!

Off me arse and out the door!!!!

 

[nitesite]

The wound you describe from a handgun cartridge COM shot is most effective if the spine is destroyed. That is why I have for years been a "heavy for caliber" kind of guy. I like momentum and that comes with weight. And if the CNS is missed, I don't really mind if there is an exit wound to hasten the tension pneumothorx effect combined with a more rapid drop in blood pressure.

I'm not even that convinced that hollow points are always the way to go in many of the larger handgun cartridges. A big cast LSWC or cast full WC is incredibly effective in .38-Spl, .44 Special, .45 Colt, etc.

 

[Tom396]

Here is some +P ammo, from Buffalo Bore, for .40 S&W.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=115

155 grains @ 1,300 fps is skipping right along. I notice that they caution you about possible barrel bulge

Hey, I wonder what would happen if I loaded that Civil Defense (60 grain/2,000 fps) stuff into my 16" barrel Hi Point carbine? Poor man's AR? Take care. Tom Worthington

 

[carbinemike]

Nobody mentioned .357 magnum yet??? 158 grains at 1300 ft/sec and 593 lb of energy and no barrel bulge. I only have 5 rounds until I need to reload but I never felt they weren't potent enough.

 

[oli700]

look up some ballistics tests Tom, they aren't real life but they are a good indicator and do show trends with weight vs. speed

 

[oli700]

Nobody mentioned .357 magnum yet??? 158 grains at 1300 ft/sec and 593 lb of energy and no barrel bulge. I only have 5 rounds until I need to reload but I never felt they weren't potent enough.

many men never lived to tell the tale

 

[Tom396]

Nobody mentioned .357 magnum yet??? 158 grains at 1300 ft/sec and 593 lb of energy and no barrel bulge. I only have 5 rounds until I need to reload but I never felt they weren't potent enough.

There is one on my hip, as we speak.

I was really torn about getting a Taurus 605 (tiny .357 revolver) or a .40 cal Shield. I ended up with the Shield, but NOT because it's performance could hold a candle to a .357 mag. Take care. Tom Worthington

 

[GunnyGene]

^^ I like my Blackhawk .41 mag using Underwood 210gr XTP bullets.

• Muzzle Velocity: 1560 fps
• Muzzle Energy: 1135 ft. lbs.

And still very controllable.

 

[Tom396]

^^ I like my Blackhawk .41 mag using Underwood 210gr XTP bullets.

• Muzzle Velocity: 1560 fps
• Muzzle Energy: 1135 ft. lbs.

And still very controllable.

Do you feel it is concealable and what is the price of ammunition like? Take care. Tom Worthington

 

[GunnyGene]

Do you feel it is concealable and what is the price of ammunition like? Take care. Tom Worthington

It's a big gun and definitely not concealable in the ordinary sense of the word . There are smaller .41mags that can be concealed tho, but you pay for that with sharper recoil. Ammo is about what you'd expect. $47.30/50rds, plus shipping. Underwood is better than most others on prices, especially considering the quality of the ammo they sell. Good people to do business with also. http://www.underwoodammo.com/