Mass vs. velocity for "stopping power"
- Thread starter Tom396
- Start date
Thanks for the tip about Underwood! I'll have to give them a shot (no pun intended) in the future. Should I mention your name?Take care. Tom Worthington
I doubt my name would carry any weight. Might be better if you mentioned MO. They might be interested in being a sponsor.
mingaa
Raconteur
The Ballistics 101 site is a good place to look at a lot of compiled (and organized) data on commercial pistol and rifle ammo: http://www.ballistics101.com/
There is also other good info and articles on the site as well!
There is also other good info and articles on the site as well!
Tom396
.30-06
Curiosity got the better of me , and I just had to try some backyard milk jug testing. I tried a 40 S&W Federal Classic 180 JHP from my 3" barrel M&P Shield. From 4 yards away, it penetrated through three of the water jugs and stopped inside the fourth. Expansion looked great. I have a pretty good supply of those and I've already verified they feed and fire well from the Shield.
While I was at it, I wanted to test something else. PPU 180 JHP 40 S&W from my Hi Point carbine. I liked the rounds because they are cheap, they are hollow point, and they feed well through the Hi Point magazines. However, I'd seen some YouTube tests that showed they didn't perform well from handguns. They didn't expand as they were supposed to and simply over penetrated like an FMJ. My theory was that maybe the extra velocity from a longer barrel would generate some expansion. I'll never know, because the core went through all six jugs and left it's fragmented jacket in the third and fourth jug. That's exactly the results the YouTube guys got from their handgun tests.
Maybe I'll try one of the Federal Classic rounds from the Hi Point, once I've gathered up some more jugs. Take care. Tom Worthington
While I was at it, I wanted to test something else. PPU 180 JHP 40 S&W from my Hi Point carbine. I liked the rounds because they are cheap, they are hollow point, and they feed well through the Hi Point magazines. However, I'd seen some YouTube tests that showed they didn't perform well from handguns. They didn't expand as they were supposed to and simply over penetrated like an FMJ. My theory was that maybe the extra velocity from a longer barrel would generate some expansion. I'll never know, because the core went through all six jugs and left it's fragmented jacket in the third and fourth jug. That's exactly the results the YouTube guys got from their handgun tests.
Maybe I'll try one of the Federal Classic rounds from the Hi Point, once I've gathered up some more jugs.
Take care. Tom Worthington
Shootin' stuff is fun. Ever take a look at the tests on the Box O' Truth? http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
Ever take a look at the tests on the Box O' Truth? http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
Tom396
.30-06
Shootin' stuff is fun.
Yeah! I like his stuff.
Take care. Tom Worthington
Tom396
.30-06
Found six more gallon jugs and tried the Federal Classic 180 gr JHP in the Hi Point carbine. I was actually surprised by the results. Fired from a 16" barrel vs. the 3" Shield barrel, the round ended up stopping in the same (#4) milk jug. I was pretty sure it was going to penetrate farther. The slug condition was very similar to the way the one from the 3" barrel looked, a bit more expansion though. The first jug sprayed me with some water, this time, too. How's that for a scientific observation? Take care. Tom Worthington
I was actually surprised by the results. Fired from a 16" barrel vs. the 3" Shield barrel, the round ended up stopping in the same (#4) milk jug. I was pretty sure it was going to penetrate farther. The slug condition was very similar to the way the one from the 3" barrel looked, a bit more expansion though. The first jug sprayed me with some water, this time, too. How's that for a scientific observation? Take care. Tom Worthington
How far are you shooting from?
Tom396
.30-06
4 yards. Take care. Tom Worthington
Wrenches
.270 WIN
Mass vs velocity? What will win? To me it's mass.
For example, catch a fastball from someone throwing it hard. SMACK! Your hand smart but you stopped it.
Now have someone underhanded toss you a bowling ball. What happened? Did you go OOF! or did you stumble?
Now let's shoot the bowling ball out of the cannon. What happened? Don't know because the catcher ran.
For example, catch a fastball from someone throwing it hard. SMACK! Your hand smart but you stopped it.
Now have someone underhanded toss you a bowling ball. What happened? Did you go OOF! or did you stumble?
Now let's shoot the bowling ball out of the cannon. What happened? Don't know because the catcher ran.
Tom396
.30-06
Mass vs velocity? What will win? To me it's mass.
For example, catch a fastball from someone throwing it hard. SMACK! Your hand smart but you stopped it.
Now have someone underhanded toss you a bowling ball. What happened? Did you go OOF! or did you stumble?
Now let's shoot the bowling ball out of the cannon. What happened? Don't know because the catcher ran.
I'm not disagreeing, but would you rather someone was shooting at you with a 145 grain 30-06 or a 230 grain .45 ACP? Either one could easily kill me, but I think my survival odds are much better against the .45. Take care. Tom Worthington
mingaa
Raconteur
Tom - the higher velocity round ( same bullet) will typically expand quickly and not penetrate farther than the slower round.
The expansion will likely be larger due to velocity and the wound channel will be more pronounced.
This is a broad statement but holds true with many popular jhp rounds.
The expansion will likely be larger due to velocity and the wound channel will be more pronounced.
This is a broad statement but holds true with many popular jhp rounds.
Tom396
.30-06
OK. Kinda sounded more like you were comparing baseballs to bowling balls.
I'm beginning to believe there really is no right answer. I genuinely hate when that happens. Take care. Tom Worthington
Wrenches
.270 WIN
True that but I was trying to compare velocity with the baseball and the bowling ball. You can throw the baseball at 90+ mph and the bowling ball a few feet per second. The mass of the bowling ball which is really exaggerated in comparison showed the heft of the mass under velocity.
Mass has the tendency to keep moving til something stops it. The more the mass, the harder to stop. The velocity has a part in the equation as well hence the rifle bullet.
Put more mass in that rifle bullet and you have the example of the bowling ball from the cannon. No one wants to catch it.
Mass has the tendency to keep moving til something stops it. The more the mass, the harder to stop. The velocity has a part in the equation as well hence the rifle bullet.
Put more mass in that rifle bullet and you have the example of the bowling ball from the cannon. No one wants to catch it.
thinking about this some more today and looking at my weapons I guess I side on velocity. The 10mm appealed to me so much because it gets heavy bullets going fast.......fast in combat pistol world not so much revolver world.
a couple more advantages in velocity are flatter flying bullets, not so much of a factor in a combat pistol but if need be its easier to hit targets at distance with flatter trajectories.
Distance is another advantage, again depending on what you want to do.
lighter projectiles usually have less recoil
with todays projectile technologies it might not hold as true but in my experience faster velocities cause more damage
don't know if this really applies to your wants or needs but the ammo weight.
I have a mag full if 77gr SMK for my AR, I can tell the difference vs. my 55gr fmj mags, but that's 30 rounds
In my ammo carrier I can tell when I have a mag of 75gr vs when I have the 55gr fmj's just by the weight alone....maybe my internal scale is highly calibrated......since there are 7000 grains to a pound, but I can tell. And the saying goes as the miles add up ounces turn into pounds when you humping it around all day. My minuteman gear carries 210 rounds, all 77's and that's almost a pound difference from the 55gr'ers
penetration would be a trade off, energy is debatable
But I always say, what you want to do and what you can never predict might happen don't always coincide. I really like "jack of all trades" built into all my choices as much as possible, realizing it might not be the best at one thing.
You never know Tom, might be in a situation where your stuck with it to feed yourself, you might have to take a long shot a UN solder for all we know these days ......nothing is out of the realm of possibility.
a couple more advantages in velocity are flatter flying bullets, not so much of a factor in a combat pistol but if need be its easier to hit targets at distance with flatter trajectories.
Distance is another advantage, again depending on what you want to do.
lighter projectiles usually have less recoil
with todays projectile technologies it might not hold as true but in my experience faster velocities cause more damage
don't know if this really applies to your wants or needs but the ammo weight.
I have a mag full if 77gr SMK for my AR, I can tell the difference vs. my 55gr fmj mags, but that's 30 rounds
In my ammo carrier I can tell when I have a mag of 75gr vs when I have the 55gr fmj's just by the weight alone....maybe my internal scale is highly calibrated......since there are 7000 grains to a pound, but I can tell. And the saying goes as the miles add up ounces turn into pounds when you humping it around all day. My minuteman gear carries 210 rounds, all 77's and that's almost a pound difference from the 55gr'ers
penetration would be a trade off, energy is debatable
But I always say, what you want to do and what you can never predict might happen don't always coincide. I really like "jack of all trades" built into all my choices as much as possible, realizing it might not be the best at one thing.
You never know Tom, might be in a situation where your stuck with it to feed yourself, you might have to take a long shot a UN solder for all we know these days ......nothing is out of the realm of possibility.
Personally, I like mass over velocity.
At least for most things.
I am not going to use 22 lr to a 50 bmg in my comparison for obvious reasons, but if you are speaking specifically of which bullet of the same caliber I would choose, I will pick the higher mass every time.
Unless of course I am stuck between a talon versus a flat tip of the same weight, in which case, I would choose the talon hp.
At least for most things.
I am not going to use 22 lr to a 50 bmg in my comparison for obvious reasons, but if you are speaking specifically of which bullet of the same caliber I would choose, I will pick the higher mass every time.
Unless of course I am stuck between a talon versus a flat tip of the same weight, in which case, I would choose the talon hp.