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Occupy Wall Street (Potential Political Debate!)

Rossignol

The Original Sheriff
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I've been listening to whats goin on not just on Wall Street, but now across the country. I dont know who is initially responsible or how it got started, but I do know the folks gathering and protesting are only loosely organized and united. Some have even said they arent protesting but the the crowd is a model for a new society. Some of the reasons given for being there are rediculous and more still make no sense, or at least to me.

Heres my take on all this, or what seems to me to be becoming clear.

Taking a look back at history adds some detail and background. Consider the Bolsheviks, Marxism, communism, and socialism. How does it happen and begin?

Its kinda like a lizard on a heat rock. If the heat rock is too hot by even a few degrees, the lizard can cook and wont notice because while the rock is too hot, the lizards body temperature rises slowly enough that it doesnt raise alarm.

The enviroment has to be right, and ready for the changes to take root, then it has to be nurtured so it can grow... and when conditions are right, it blooms.

Does an oak tree look like an oak tree as an acorn? Not at all, and if you didnt know better youd never guess the small acorn can grow into a huge, deeply rooted, and very strong tree. If you know what youre looking at, you recogize the acorn for what it is potentially beyond the seed.

We have seen the acorn over the last few years. The seed is planted and has taken root. Branches are reaching out and becoming strong.

Firstly, there has to be an enemy which almost always has been capitalism and free enterprise. The "rich" have been made the physical manifestation of the enemy and the focus for hatred. There are throughout history, extreme examples involving violent uprising, such as the Bolsheviks and the Nazis. There were a few differences with these examples, Hitler belived the Jewish people to be responsible for the decline of Germany, and in the case of the Bolsheviks (the workers and proletariat and even soldiers) blamed the aristocracy initially for events such as "bloody Sunday" in 1905, followed by the provisional govt established to replace the Czar, as well as capitalists for their blight and ruin sustained by years of war and unfulfilled promises.

The above mentioned political factions destroy what is sacred and held as morally right... so there is no moral compass, nothing taboo. The fringes are now believed to be perfectly normal and to think otherwise is WRONG and punishable. This is all done under the guise of "fairness". There is no God, and there is no immorality. Additionally, we are to believe it has always been this way. Communists would knock crosses off of headstones and grave markers.

Sounding familiar? No more "God" in The Pledge of Allegiance, No more God in the Supreme Court, No more God on our money, No God in class rooms...

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Incrementalism.

To take hold, you have also got to control education. You have to control literature, (book burning) or in the case here in American, you simply ban certain books from class rooms and schools, saying the content is objectional and offensive. Possibly true. But our Constitution gaurantees free speech, not censorship. Say any stupid thing you wanna say, I dont care!!! It helps the rest of us recognize your stupidity and we can then make an educated decision to not be associated with you! Right now, our govt and school sytem is alligned. If you control the education of the youth, you have the foundation and nourishment needed to keep the movement alive. The indoctrinated are now the tenured professors in colleges across the US. The "Hitler Youth" was the childrens version of the Nazi party, or National Socialist Workers Party. They provided the Third Reich with fresh recruits who were to be future leaders.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
Karl Marx, 1875


Additionally, the power and privledge of office has to be used to confiscate from the enemy that which is owed to the proletariat. Why? Because that would be fair. Its the enemy after all and they need to be punished in some way and the way that makes the most sense is monetarily. A financial penalty for their greed and for the abuse of the "people", using them to their own ends with no compassion. In fact it should be regulated by govt to ensure the appropriate fines are paid. The funds are of course used to meet the needs of the proletariat. Their schooling is paid for (unholy alliance between US schools and US govt again!) their bills are paid, food purchased, health care and retirement are all provided for, etc etc etc... The most recent example of this welfare state is the UK, Great Britain.

Free men own guns, slaves do not.

I dont know how in depth I need to go here. Our Second Ammendment rights are challenged daily. Once the population at large catches on to whats happening, you cant advance without controlling the firearms. There will be Peace Through Superior Firepower. Who's peace will it be. Ours or theirs... I dunno. There has for sometime now been talk of a national registry for all gun owners. Ask residents of Chicago, California and New York how that goes. It was said it would never be used as a list to confiscate guns... We all know there are those in power who want guns gone altogether.

So... identify an enemy, eliminate any accountability to a higher power in the name of fairness, control education to the ends of rewriting history so it seems it has always been this way, foster the developement of a welfare state, and remove the private ownwership of firearms.

Once thats complete, you have a target rich enviroment for a huge, bloated, hemoraging and oppressive govt. Complete redistribution of wealth. The death of ambition drive and desire. The death of ingenuity. The death of rugged individualism and indentity.

This is what I see happening here in the US right now. I believe the Occupy Wall Street movement is among the steps involved in the process. I'm not typically the conspiracy theorist type but I cant help but to see similarity to every era of written history involving the massive expansion of govt into complete and total redistribution.

I dont know what else to do here but to stay vigillant and keep the pressure on at the polls while we're able. Oh! And on that note, have you heard of Gov. Bev Perdue? How about the Suspension of Elections? She suggested that suspending elections would allow the country to recover because elected officials wouldnt be worrying about "the next election"...

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant.
Rossignol, out.
 
Just google this name...

George Soros

Nuff said...!!
 
Yep, I know all about him and moveon.org!!! I didnt even use moveon.org to support my arguement... coulda/shoulda

I know man... sometime they come right out and tell you what they wanna do but few people ever take them seriously. No one can say this stuff hasnt been broadcast by the liberal left for years now. The incrementalism has been happening for the last few generations.
 
Something has got to give. We can’t keep going down the economic road we are on. I am lucky to have a job but I have been in a pay freeze for almost 4 years. By the end of the biennium I will have given 36 furlough days. Yet things get more expensive. The rich get richer. Wall Street exercises unchecked looting of the economy and if you don’t believe that then you are blind or uneducated. I have said this over and over ….I am a patriot, I love my country but this fat cat politician crap has to stop. So these people decided to draw attention. It is like Brad said an acorn. I say resistance is a good thing , change is a good thing , it keeps checks and balances. Hang on because the amount of Americans with nothing to lose is growing every hour…..it’s always darkest before the dawn.
 
I like what Herman Cain had to say ...

Don't blame Wall Street, don't blame the big banks, if you don't have a job and you're not rich, blame yourself.

Time for a healthy dose of personal responsibility.
 
I am all for personal responsibility. Your statement don’t fly, people lose jobs everyday…out of their control. You think just because people don’t try to become rich is the reason they are not? You act like someone losing a house or a job because they aren’t putting out the effort. I know two friends that have lost their jobs logging 6 months ago because the government likes foreign interests and foreign wood. The government let the environmentalists have their way around every turn. One of those folks I hired to be a crewman for summer fire. This is a 45 yo man doing the job of a 20 yo….body falling apart so he can keep his house. Fire season ended today…he might become homeless…..his family might be homeless. He has a bunch of apps out……you think he isn’t trying? Bullshit Mud. The second one drives to Northern Cali to work and stay. He doesn’t see his family, the cost of fuel and housing is so much that he barely breaks even and is considering food stamps so his kids can eat. You think he is not rich because he isn’t making sacrifices…whatever man. There are people that don’t try, they never had anything worth loosing anyway but there are a lot of good people that do try and try and don’t deserve a statement like blame yourself…Wall Street is a big problem…I don’t care who you are or what you do nobody deservers a million dollar bonus…nobody. Is that your idea of how to get rich ? Is that ok with you ?
 
Oli, as someone who pulled himself up out of abject poverty, I don't buy most of the "poor me" (or 'poor them') stuff. I'm sure there are a percentage of people who are in dire financial straits through no fault of their own. However, there is a growing number of people in this country with a "world owes me a living" mentality that just don't get it.

When we started defining "poverty", as a nation, as not having cable TV, cell phones, flat-screen TV's, pets and a pile of other stuff that's nowhere near necessary, we began to delude ourselves about what we "deserve". I've lived well below the U.S. poverty line and I've seen true poverty in Third World countries.

Life is what you make of it. When you get knocked down, you can get back up and keep fighting or you can curl up into a ball and cry about getting knocked down.

Your friends sound like they're going through some tough times. BTDT ... I can relate. I can even empathise. What I can't understand is crying about it or "occupying" Wall Street to bitch and moan about it. Guess what I did when it happened to me.

I didn't say anything about not making sacrifices. You put those words in my mouth. Pretty much everyone has to make sacrifices. Not everyone will become rich by doing so. It's entirely possible, that a person might have to live their entire life scrabbling to make ends meet. Life isn't fair. Blaming others doesn't change the balance.

I too have had to live away from my family to make a living. Eventually, I took stock of my life and asked myself some tough questions. I took about a 60% pay cut to take a job (after owning my own business) to spend time with my family. It wasn't easy but you'll rarely hear me complain about the lack of money. Instead, I try to focus on counting my blessings.

As far as million dollar bonuses go ... I'd have to disagree that no one deserves them. I believe individuals should be compensated based upon their productivity (the value of what they produce). That's how a free market economy works. Unless an individual has worked a job that was 100% commission or started their own business, that's probably a difficult concept to accept.
 
I got laid off from a good job, a career, a few years ago. I had invested alot of time and emotion into that job and figured I would retire from there... Ten years and I got laid off. Banks couldnt loan money and for the first time, our company was required to have 40% of the building cost in liqued assets.

We couldnt keep building at breakneck speeds. I was running crews, sometimes 50 guys, I ran the site in the supervisors absence. I estimated hours and personel for bids, headed up site safety and implemented OSHA safety policies. I ran structural steel crews...

Anyhow, I too was laid off. I applied all over the country knowing I may have to work away from my family for some time. As it turns out I only ever went as far as Jersey, but it took two years to find full time employment near home. I took a paycut that was equal to approximately 4 years of raises.

I have a stabbing headache right now so I cant tie it all together, but I'll try and get back to it later tonight.
 
I'm gonna try to make sense of my thoughts now...

I certainlty dont blame myself for being laid off. Dang, no way. I caused myself some permanent and irreversible damage in the name of self promotion. There wasnt anything I couldnt do.

I dont blame my employers. They did everything possible moving guys around and carrying more guys than hours allowed in the bids and ate the additional costs.

This is as far as I organize my thoughts...
 
It doesn't sound like you were looking to blame anyone. My sense is that the Occupy Wall Street people are looking for anyone and everyone else to take responsibility so they don't have to. They're talking about what they deserve. None of us deserve anything.
 
Mudinyeri said:
It doesn't sound like you were looking to blame anyone. My sense is that the Occupy Wall Street people are looking for anyone and everyone else to take responsibility so they don't have to. They're talking about what they deserve. None of us deserve anything.

I agree completely with this. You have summmarized so eloquently in these couple sentences what i couldnt.

The largest problem I see is the one created and fostered by the Nanny State. There is no personal accountability among half the population. There is an entire sector which feels they "deserve" the entitlement programs. In fact the word "Entitlement" alone is synonomous with "deserve"... Youre right, no one deserves anything, but much like the UK and other places around the world, an entire generation of folks have grown up now believing these programs exist for their benefit.

England has begun to remove the crust from from their eyes and are waking up to what entitlement is doing to their country. Thats kinda what the days of rioting were about. The govt wanting to remove or cut back on the programs and the people the "proletariat" the workers party, getting PO'd and rioting and looting all angry at the "capitalists" and as much as said it was their fault as well as the conservatives and they were gonna take what was theirs.

Govt should never have become as big as it is. Govt should be very limited in their powers and duties. The "core" functions if you will. The govt needs to back off, live within its means, let us keep more of our money and live freely with out them being there to catch us every time we fall down.

The only thing we are entitled to is the "Pursuit".
 
EDIT: for the sake of full disclosure,
I should mention probably I'm a very opinionated conservative, but certainly not a conspiracy theorist. I believe in small govt and personal accountability. I belive we have the right to persue happiness, with no govt backed gaurantee of achieving hapiness. I feel govts role is to back off and leave us alone, not mandate, legislate and regulate all aspects of life. Let the stupid be stupid, it helps us to identify those individuals and plan accordingly. Please dont try and save us from our selves.

I'm still following this fairly closely.

I dont know if anyone else cares as much as I do, but these "Occupy" movements should be like the writing on the wall.

The US spent a generation or better fighting communism around the world, however, incremental communism is settling in right here at home.

And more so, protesters are being urged by some to;
use the bloody French Revolution as its model.

The bourgeoisie won't go without violent means. Revolution! Long live revolution! Long live socialism!

I dont make this stuff up. These quotes are from one guy, but I have found several stand out examples of the same.

Just as I mentioned in my earlier posts, there is a need for an enemy, and its capitalism, being called the "bourgeoisie". The Bolsheviks called them the aristocracy in post Nicholas II Russia. I have said on here before, the current administration is livin the "Let them eat cake" lifestyle. I consider the condition to be headed toward socialism already, but for many, it isnt far enough.

Many of the "Occupiers" are making plans to settle in for winter, but what is an acceptable outcome? What the heck is their goal? Some have very solid convictions, and as mob mentality goes, they need a leader with a clear plan, even if the protesters themselves dont know the plan.

I have heard audio from someone saying if the goal is to take what other people have, eventually theyll figure out they dont have to wait for the govt. to give it to them. They can go take it for themselves. Something similar to the riots in England in response to govt cutbacks to entitlement programs where the "rich" and the conservatives were blamed. By the rioters no less.

The writing is on the wall. Dont know where or when it will come to a head, but it will if calmer minds dont prevail.

"I'll be boarding the next available handbasket for hell please."
 
Rossignol said:
What the heck is their goal? "
That’s the thing …there is no goal….but there are many. I have been following it close as well. There are groups within the group, people are there for different reasons. Some self serving and some not. The one common denominator that are bringing these Americans together…Frustration. Thats why they cant be placed in a "class" as stupid protesters or just a bunch of idiots attacking Wall St.....there are many reasons people are there so they cant just be lumped up. But on the other hand its harder to take them seriously because there is no common goal of outcome, in general its frustration with the FEDS.
Everyone has opinions but I personally think resistance is a good thing, even if the feds are not at fault we all need to be put in check every now and then, it’s just the natural way of things. It shows them that people do think and there are more people out there to please than just the ones who fall in line and do what they are told.
 
The OWS crowds do seem to be the Medusa of protests. No single, common thread to their lament. However, the "world owes me a living" crowd seems to be one of the most vocal and the crowd that I believe Cain was addressing.

I read a news story today about America's "new poor". One of the families singled out made in excess of $100,000 in 2010. They expect to make $15,000 this year. I've had a year where I paid for the privilege to work. Not only did I not make money. I put money into the business that I was helping to start. That didn't make me poor. It was just a temporary cash flow issue.

America's New Poor ... give me a break!

The world does not owe you a living. The world does not owe you a job. You want something? You have to stand up, grab the world by the short hairs and take it for yourself.

Here's a glimpse of the OWS crowd(s):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnGcUnoN ... r_embedded
 
Oli, you mention some things I rather agree with. Protest is protected in the Constitution.

I dont think theyre all idiots, but the idiots are the ones that get the air time.

I dont disagree with the frustration, even if its misplaced. I wouldnt be typing an editorial if I werent frustrated too! :D

The problem with the disorganization is it allows stronger and better organized, more dominant personalities to begin shaping the "occupation" to better suit the desires of a party or entity. People in higher places are exploiting the protests, using them to advance their own agenda while pretending to see to the concerns of the protesters, just eggin them on and riling them up. Playing on the extreme elements within the "mob". One example being exhibited is the class envy, class warfare rhetoric. (Some) Politicians see this as an opportunity to be seized.

I'm speaking in generalizations. Not every politician is approaching the protests the way a vulture approaches road kill. Not every protester is an idiot.

But! There are vultures feeding on idiots.
 
I hear all that. Sounds like the land owners want them gone so this should be interesting the next couple days. People are doing this all over the country in smaller scale, like little support occupations.
 
Toby, thanks for posting that video.

"Our troops are the terrorist" Whiskey Tango Foxtrot dude?

These three guys fairly well represent how I feel. I like how they asked the one guy why not just move to Russia.

The occupiers represent a concentrated group, and i dont know if that concentration exists outside of the protests. But can you imagine a majority percentage believing the socialist rhetoric and tenants the way the protesters in the video so quickly repeat it? Theyre saying they ACTUALLY WANT socialism.

EDIT:
From the Tea Partiers in the video;
We just dont like Communism or tyranny or Facism particularly.
Neither do I, and people dont recognize the direction of the OWS movement and it becomes pervasive and main stream, its where we're goin. Hopefully the next general election will put an end to it.

I have a couple copies of those pocket Constitutions. You can get them for free from The Heritage Foundation;
http://www.askheritage.org/pocket-constitution/

How about the lady who describes herself as being among the "1%ers"?
I dont know particularly what our demands are.


I get some weird looks when I talk to people about this stuff. Apparently people I work with either dont care or are ill-informed, or both. One guy told me he didnt care and he wasnt goin to do anything to change anything so he wasnt getting involved. I asked him if he was happy just driffting with the winds and currents. He didnt answer.

People perceive me as a whacked out right wing extremist, armed to the teeth with 40mm grenades and remote HE's, and long range sniper weapons.

I sometimes quote Marx about "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need." They think that makes sense and is a good idea, till i tell them who said it and they get offended.

Where did all the cowboys go? When did people quit staring fear and tough decisions down? What the heck happened to rugged individualism? I wanna make my own destiny without the impediment of govt.

"If pro is the opposite of con, is congress the opposite of progress?"

Anyone reserve their tickets for that handbasket ride yet? Can we get a group rate?
 
Hank Jr. Left Monday Night Football...

Keep The Change, recorded earlier this week.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDvBmWOf8m0&feature=related[/youtube]
 
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