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Ongoing discussion about legallity

Dr. Marneaus

.270 WIN
I see more and more people commenting on facebook and places like that, that "any changes to the shockwave" make it an NFA firearm. "dont change the grip" "dont add an arm brace" "dont change the forend or add a rail!" "The letter says it'll become an NFA item!" "My dealer said anything I do to it will make it an NFA gun!"

Is there ANY merit to these comments and concerns?

I don't understand how if you can build your own based on a PGO 12 gauge, that putting a different grip, or different fore end or whatever would make it go from approved to unapproved.

The logic in my head tells me that just because a specific firearm is approved (shockwave, tac 14, black aces thingy) does not mean anything else is UNAPPROVED and illegal...right? As long as it still meets the basic requirements. The law is worded so that if you meet these requirements the firearm is not subject to NFA: Is PGO, and is greater than 26" in length.

Does it matter if it came from the Mossberg factory, Remington Factory? Black Aces Factory?? Does it matter if its a Shockwave Technologies branded grip? Does it matter if its made of wood? Resin? G10? Plastic? Dried up Playdough? Elk Antler? No, at least it shouldn't.

Or am I totally off base here?
 
I see more and more people commenting on facebook and places like that, that "any changes to the shockwave" make it an NFA firearm. "dont change the grip" "dont add an arm brace" "dont change the forend or add a rail!" "The letter says it'll become an NFA item!" "My dealer said anything I do to it will make it an NFA gun!"

Is there ANY merit to these comments and concerns?

I don't understand how if you can build your own based on a PGO 12 gauge, that putting a different grip, or different fore end or whatever would make it go from approved to unapproved.

The logic in my head tells me that just because a specific firearm is approved (shockwave, tac 14, black aces thingy) does not mean anything else is UNAPPROVED and illegal...right? As long as it still meets the basic requirements. The law is worded so that if you meet these requirements the firearm is not subject to NFA: Is PGO, and is greater than 26" in length.

Does it matter if it came from the Mossberg factory, Remington Factory? Black Aces Factory?? Does it matter if its a Shockwave Technologies branded grip? Does it matter if its made of wood? Resin? G10? Plastic? Dried up Playdough? Elk Antler? No, at least it shouldn't.

Or am I totally off base here?

I haven't heard anything that will make it a NFA item. But there are better more well educated souls here that can opine on that if there is indeed areas of concern.

@John A.
 
OK, here's my take on it.

When Mossberg submitted the original shockwave to the ATF Tech Branch for their legal determination (*or whatever they call themselves these days), the ATF bases their decision on how to classify the weapon.

So, they approved the shockwave based on how Mossberg submitted their sample.

OK, if you change something (grip for instance) and it's shorter, that could change the classification.

If you install a buttstock, that would change the classification.

If you install a shorter barrel than the one that is on it, that could change the classification.

So, there are many folks saying "don't change anything".

And even the ATF will quote a little paragraph in each determination that says any changes to the design or materials whatsoever, would require them to look at the weapon again to see if the physical change would change the classification of the gun.

So, my humble opinion, if you swap the grip, make sure the one you put on is exactly the same length or a little longer when measuring the overall length.
 
OK, here's my take on it.

When Mossberg submitted the original shockwave to the ATF Tech Branch for their legal determination (*or whatever they call themselves these days), the ATF bases their decision on how to classify the weapon.

So, they approved the shockwave based on how Mossberg submitted their sample.

OK, if you change something (grip for instance) and it's shorter, that could change the classification.

If you install a buttstock, that would change the classification.

If you install a shorter barrel than the one that is on it, that could change the classification.

So, there are many folks saying "don't change anything".

And even the ATF will quote a little paragraph in each determination that says any changes to the design or materials whatsoever, would require them to look at the weapon again to see if the physical change would change the classification of the gun.

So, my humble opinion, if you swap the grip, make sure the one you put on is exactly the same length or a little longer when measuring the overall length.

I'm kind of thinking about it like you.

1. as long as whatever you do still meets the same requirements that made it legal from the submitted sample, you're good to go. Example: adding a birdshead grip that is similar but longer.

2. just because something is "subject to review" doesnt mean it would be approved OR unapproved. If an example with a longer grip was deemed necessary to review, it would likely remain approved.


People seem to think that the ATF having approved the shockwave, tac, and black aces, means ONLY those builds/configurations are approved. No. It means the REASONING BEHIND the builds is approved. If a black aces thingy with an arm brace is approved, does it not stand to reason that an arm brace used on a mossberg shockwave in the exact same use, should be approved as well?

People see my shockwave with wooden furniture and are all "omgzzzzzzz you're going to jail its made of WOOD not PLASTIC i dont care that its half an inch longer!!!"
 
People seem to think that the ATF having approved the shockwave, tac, and black aces, means ONLY those builds/configurations are approved. No. It means the REASONING BEHIND the builds is approved. If a black aces thingy with an arm brace is approved, does it not stand to reason that an arm brace used on a mossberg shockwave in the exact same use, should be approved as well?

People see my shockwave with wooden furniture and are all "omgzzzzzzz you're going to jail its made of WOOD not PLASTIC i dont care that its half an inch longer!!!"

This is my belief as well.

If it's still within what the law says, it's within the law.

ATF words their determination letters in the way that they do, to cover their butt if someone makes a change that did change them enough to be classified as something else entirely.

ATF reviewed the sample that Mossberg submitted, approved it the way that Mossberg submitted it, and if you change something, could cause it to be reclassified based on the change you made.

That is classic CYA (cover your ass) on ATF's part.

But if you change something, just make sure that it's something that isn't illegal.

Don't put vertical grips on the front of it, don't put buttstocks on it, make sure the overall length isn't shorter, etc, ad nauseum.
 
Because I changed mine from plastic grips to a full wooden buttstock, nobody's going to look twice at it now.

But I too was going to carve a wood parrot's head grip.

Again, I don't believe anybody's going to look twice at it, but I am not taking it hunting. It's a house gun or HD gun, and otherwise only shoots at the range.
 
Because I changed mine from plastic grips to a full wooden buttstock, nobody's going to look twice at it now.

But I too was going to carve a wood parrot's head grip.

Again, I don't believe anybody's going to look twice at it, but I am not taking it hunting. It's a house gun or HD gun, and otherwise only shoots at the range.

New here but not new to the Mossberg. My understanding is this.....If you take the Shockwave as it was manufactured by Mossberg with the 14-14 1/2 inch barrel and install a full buttstock that can now be fired from the shoulder, you now have a NFA weapon subject to taxation and registration because of the less than 18" barrel. You have probably also violated federal gun laws, making yourself a felon, subject to all the bad legal things headed your way. There may be a "legal" way to do this but it will involve getting "permission" from big, bad fedgov to CYA and stay out of jail. A call to the ATF and speaking to an agent could clear this up. After all, the ATF will be the ones to put your ass in a legal sling with far reaching effects.

It is too bad that things are this way but to violate federal gun laws gets otherwise well meaning people jail time every day. Let us go all the way back to U.S. vs Miller, 1939, a Supreme Court case that the very subject was "The court has not been put on judicial notice that a shotgun with a barrel of less than 18" has any(here comes that horrible M word) militia value."

Tread lightly here. I do wish you well.
 
Two things I definitely would not do to my Shockwave:
1.Mount a shoulder stock, or even the arm brace.
2.Mount a vertical foregrip
 
As others have mentioned, the Shockwave was specifically made to fit into a very small void in the classifications. It does not take much of a change in OAL, etc to bump it into another classification.
 
There are several things that has to be done with the shockwave for it to pass legal scrutiny.

It can never have been a shoulder fired weapon. This is documented at the factory, and even on past/present 4473's if done correctly when they are transferred and is specific to the shockwave model. That is probably the biggest legal hurdle, and one that "just anyone" can never bullshit their way out of. Sorry, but unless you can break into their office, find their manufacturing records in storage or hack their database and make changes to it-it's not going to happen any other way. Like I said, that is the main reason why the shockwave passes legal scrutiny. While it would be physically possible to change an old Mossberg 500 turkey gun into a shockwave, it fails to meet legal requirements. Yes the law is stupid. No I can't do anything about it. And I refer you to read my sig line below.

If a shotgun has ever had a buttstock installed at any time, it would be classified as a short barrel shotgun. That's how the law has been interpreted and the precedent has been set for almost 60 years now.

Another thing that I think would have to maintain is its' current OVERALL LENGTH, and it must be measured correctly. And adding a vertical front grip on the gun would also classify it as an AOW, which carries the same penalties and fines as an illegal machinegun or pipe bombs and such.

I think the ATF's CYA letter is appropriately worded because it wouldn't take many changes to the firearm to land in unfriendly territory.

But I will say that I have not seen anything a certain few people on this forum have changed that would crash land theirs in that bad place.

At least not yet. I have quietly been waiting to have to be the "bad guy" to be the one that has to contact someone when they do, but for now, I have seen a few examples of tastefully done changes and all the while proud of those that have understood and stayed within legal limits doing so.
 
Okay I was confused about the Shockwave. I did not realize the barrel was so short. Yeah that would be a sure bust here.

AFAIK They don't sell those at all in California.

Mine is the Cruiser which has an 18 inch barrel.
 
And adding a vertical front grip on the gun would also classify it as an AOW, which carries the same penalties and fines as an illegal machinegun or pipe bombs and such.

To the best of my knowledge, a vertical grip cannot be added to a PISTOL/HANDGUN because by ATF definition they are designed to be fired with one hand. Adding a second "grip" changes that.

I dont think there is any provision against a FIREARM having a VFG, as is exemplified on the black aces models.

Not saying i would have any desire to add a VFG, but, I think its fine on a FIREARM.
 
I know some of their product line (mainly the little "pistol shotgun"), that's about all I know about them.
 
Well, like the Shockwave, you are not going to see any of those little pistol shotguns here either. They're all been made illegal including the Circuit Judge and all that stuff. I don't think we can buy any shotgun except a tubular magazine type over 18 in, with pistol or buttstock. You may not have a removable Magazine on a shotgun. It may not have a revolving cylinder.

This is all for new gun sales, and if you have an old one it's still legal as far as I know.
 
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