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Question Of The Month. (February 2017) with poll.

Discussion in 'Question of the Month' started by ripjack13, Feb 7, 2017.

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Should Businesses that Ban Guns, Be Liable for Criminal Attacks?

Poll closed Feb 28, 2017.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  3. Are you high?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No Comment

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Sue Everyone!!!!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. ripjack13

    ripjack13 Resident Sawdust Maker Staff Member Administrator Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    14,485
    Should Businesses that Ban Guns, Be Liable for Criminal Attacks?
  2. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 Guest

    Sorry...but NO.

    Just like Gun Manufacturers should NOT be sued if their product is used in the commission of a crime that takes lives... { ie...Sandy Hook Tragedy }
    ripjack13 and MikeD like this.
  3. MikeD

    MikeD I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    11,494
    I'm on the same page as Shooter, NO!!

    This falls under the "My House, My Rules" philosophy.

    I may not agree with anothers rules but it is their choice to set the rules for their establishment just as it it my choice to comply or take my business elsewhere.

    It also goes against my belief that one of the core problems in this country is that it is run by lawyers...but that is another discussion.
    ripjack13 likes this.
  4. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

    Messages:
    6,375
    You're asking, "should they be held liable if a third party on their property injures you on their property, because you weren't allowed to be armed."

    If you're not being forced to be there, you can't complain about the conditions IMO.

    If the sign says. "Gentlemen must wear a tie" or "citizens must check their guns at the door," that's OK.

    I don't have to shop/eat/stay there, even if it makes me unhappy to go elsewhere.

    The law does not exist to protect me from unhappiness or inconvenience.
  5. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Sponsor Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    12,758
    I understand both sides of this and empathize with each.

    For some reason however, I am liable and carry insurance on home policy for people who are injured while on my property. Kinda like the scenario if one has a pool and a kid jumps the fence and drowns, the home owner is responsible.

    I have a hard time with duality in our legal system. It's the same way with Obama care and some certain people exempting themselves from the requirements.

    Don't make laws that apply to me but not to thee.
    ripjack13 likes this.
  6. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Sponsor Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    12,758
    I know these aren't direct comparisons.
    ripjack13 likes this.
  7. dieselmudder

    dieselmudder .30-06 Elite "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    1,956
    Is the question meant for businesses only, or does it apply to all establishments, such as state, and federal buildings? Say you're required to be in a courthouse, under penalty of law. And there's a shooting. You weren't there by choice, and you got injured.
  8. MikeD

    MikeD I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    11,494
    Businesses still must have liability.

    If you tell someone they cannot carry in your home and they are killed during a home invasion, you are not liable for their injury solely because you do not allow guns in your home.

    If they trip and fall on the sidewalk your liabilty would cover it as would a business's.
    Rossignol likes this.
  9. ripjack13

    ripjack13 Resident Sawdust Maker Staff Member Administrator Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    14,485
    I originally intended it as just for businesses, but we can expand on it, to apply to all establishments, and we can also include state, and federal buildings. However I'm not to sure about holding the feds responsible. But, what's good for the goose is good for the gander....
  10. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

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    6,375
    We are commanded by God not to murder, but at the same time we have the responsibility to protect our families and ourselves from harm.

    I've always felt that if I had to kill to protect my family that I would do it and leave the consequences to God's judgement. He can determine what is murder and what is not.

    By the same token, if I had to go somewhere that I didn't feel was safe to go un-armed, I will attend to my own protection first, and to the legal, political or moral concerns of others after.
  11. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 Guest

    I'll do my time in hell to protect my family...

    And the Lord said:

    "Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, "I am a mighty man."
    Joel 3:10

    "If I sharpen My flashing sword, And My hand takes hold on justice, I will render vengeance on My adversaries, And I will repay those who hate Me."
    Deuteronomy 32:41
    MikeD, ripjack13 and CaddmannQ like this.
  12. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Sponsor Forum Moderator

    Messages:
    12,758
    Right, and I was typing and realized I was out of time and had to start work so I left it at an over simplified arguement.

    Playing devils advocate, it's a policy that handicaps law abiding only where otherwise we may legally carry. So from that perspective, the owners decision may expressly affect a patron.
    ripjack13 likes this.
  13. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

    Messages:
    6,375
    It's a poor policy, perhaps, but is there anything illegal about it?
    Morality is a different matter.

    A lot of folks ask questions like "What would Jesus do?"
    As I recall, "...render unto Caesar...."
    Good advice in that instance: to obey the law (specifically by paying taxes.)

    But it might also be said that we are not to "make law", when that is given Caesar (or the various official governments, nowadays...) to do.
  14. OhioArcher

    OhioArcher Where's da fishes? Forum Moderator Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    3,817
    I'm looking at this question as "Should businesses have the "right" to deny you your Constitutional right to bear arms and the Natural right to self defense, and should they or should they not be held accountable for any injuries that occur because of their decision?".

    Barring me from carrying my weapon is not the same as a restaurant saying gentlemen must wear a tie after 7 pm. It is not the same as saying you must wear shoes and socks to enter. Those are not rights. Carrying my firearm is my right that should not be so easily dismissed as so many businesses are allowed to do. There is no Constitutional right for them to do so.

    If a business decides to do major reconstruction in the middle of the day while serving customers and a ladder falls and kills/injures a customer then that company is liable. Should be the same with disarming their customers.

    Yes, you can go elsewhere (and I usually do). But that isn't always an option. I refuse to take my firearm off despite the signs. Only places I can't follow that is court houses and police stations. Like the sign says, better to be judged by 12...
  15. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

    Messages:
    6,375
    Well, courthouses & police stations here have metal scanners. You normally couldn't get a gun in if you tried.

    But so what if a restaurant or grocery store has the sign that says "no guns allowed"? You're not going to pull it out and show them, are you?

    (Unless the SHTF, and at that point you won't care about that little sign.)

    The rules of CCW here say that you do not show it off unless you have to shoot it.

    If you have a CCW and someone in the public sees your weapon while you are carrying, you have committed a serious offense and could lose your CCW license for it, if they mentioned it to the Sheriff.

    Keep it concealed = no problem.
  16. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

    Messages:
    6,375
    Back to the original question.....

    Imagine that you are carrying concealed, & you go to a store and while you are shopping an armed robbery begins.

    You toss a can of beans 3 rows down the way, and while the robber is distracted by all the noise of shit falling off the shelves you sneak up behind him, stick your pistol in his ear and take his gun away from him.

    His partner who was already in the store before the robbery began pulls out his gun and shoots you. You end up in the hospital with half a liver missing. Both of the robbers are captured.

    The store had a sign on the front prohibiting the carrying of firearms.

    Does the store sue you? Do you sue them? Are you prosecuted under the law? Can you sue the store because "...it never would have been robbed except for that stupid rule which emboldens the criminals"? ( maybe in California...)

    Real life is often complicated like that and there are no easy answers.

    I am no lawyer, however I believe that there is one generally accepted answer in court and that is: "I did what a prudent man would do, under a situation, which is not covered exactly in the law."

    If, in fact, that is what you did.
  17. MikeD

    MikeD I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    11,494
    Laws vary by state. Here that would not be a criminal offense. The business owner can ask you to leave or he may call the police to ask you to leave or charge you with trespassing if you refuse the request from them or the business owner. If you bave been asked to leave and contune to return more charges may be applied. Fortunately, here, just posting a sign does not carry weight of law.

    We basically have three sets of laws; Open carry, conceiled carry and open carry with CPL (Concealed Pistol License). There is some overlap but some very impotant differences.

    Here if you open carry with CPL you can legally carry practically anywhere but a courthouse or federal building.

    That is the law, not to say an officer on the scene would interpret it the same way, as does happen on occasion. LEO's are not lawyers and will often opt to err on the side of caution and let the court figure it out. Not saying I agree with that approach but in that situation you are likely not going to win a debate with the officer on the scene.

    I agree with the conceiled means conceiled philosophy. I only outline the law in MI because you have to know the ins and outs of this where you live. The result of violating a business owners request differs greatly from location to location from simple request to leave the premisis to jail time.
  18. bwalker

    bwalker .410

    Messages:
    57
    It's also illegal to carry in the USPS parking lot and building. The USPS and Court are the only places I don't carry. If I go to a business that prohibits carry then I'll wear an extra layer of clothing to conceal rather than just my t-shirt. I'd rather a misdemeanor charge than be caught unarmed in a life-and-death situation.
  19. Scoop

    Scoop .30-06

    Messages:
    1,480
    I've wangled my way into posted places just to see what I could get away with. When I moved to this burg about 4 years ago I was looking for a bank w/ safe deposit boxes available for rent. One bank I noticed was posted
    with the upload_2017-2-11_2-1-19.png sign. So I drove into the drive-thru lane and told the voice-in-the-box I wanted to get a strong box and she told me see Mr. Jones. "Where is he?" I queried. She says, "Just park in the lot and come into the lobby and ask for him." OK. So I had an invitation.

    I go into Mr. Jones' office and he tells me has boxes this size and this price. I ask, "Is it alright if I carry a sidearm while I'm handling my valuables in the vault?" He says "No, we have a sign on the door that says 'NO GUNS.' " Then I tell him all he has to do is write an extra paragraph on the contract that exempts me by invitation. He says no [as expected]. I say goodbye.

    Later in the year I offered schlep some items for a charity auction over to bar where they were going to launch a motorcycle poker run on Saturday. This bar was posted, too. Not all bars are posted in TN. I drive up w/ a van full of goodies and ask the owner where he wants the stuff. I ask him if it's OK if I wear my sidearm in the bar or did he want to move all the stuff himself. He said no problem and we got the job done.

    So back to the question. The businesses can ban if they like. They shouldn't be legislatively liable. But they should be aware that civil suits could be brought against them by victims of criminal attacks. That's what insurance is for.
  20. OhioArcher

    OhioArcher Where's da fishes? Forum Moderator Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    3,817
    Not here in OH. If someone sees it all they can do is ask you to leave. If you don't leave you can be prosecuted for trespassing not CW. It is not considered a firearm violation.

    But I have no allusion to being a "hero" and tracking down a robber. If one comes in I intend to get myself and my family out. Or at least defend if confronted. In the above scenario (in many places including OH) if given an opportunity to disengage you must. If you are not actually in a life or death scenario you can not "go after" the bad guy. Yes, it all depends upon your perception at the time but actively tracking down a robber in a store (unless he/she is actually shooting people) is a good way to get in trouble both physically and legally.

    Funny you mention the USPS. None of the ones around here have the "No guns" signs. Not in the building or in the parking lots. I "know" they should be there but I look each time I go inside one and none are in sight. Maybe it's posted on the Employees bulletin board. After all, that IS where "going Postal" started. So, no signs, I carry.

    BTW, one additional place I don't carry is schools. We can lock them in the car in the parking lot but inside is a BIG no-no.

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