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Question Of The Month (November 2021) (Kyle Rittenhouse)

Discussion in 'Question of the Month' started by carbinemike, Nov 4, 2021.

  1. carbinemike

    carbinemike Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    Is Kyle Rittenhouse guilty of any crime when he shot and killed several people during the riots in Kenosha, Wisconsin last year? See information on the case below)
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
  2. carbinemike

    carbinemike Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    What are the facts of the case?
    On 25 August 2020, 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse travelled from his home in Antioch, Illinois to Kenosha, in neighbouring Wisconsin, and picked up an AR-style semiautomatic rifle from a friend.

    The teen was responding to a call on social media for armed Americans to help protect property from unrest on the streets.

    Local officials had declared a state of emergency two days earlier amid mass protests and street unrest over the shooting of Jacob Blake, a black man. The incident came just three months after a national outcry over the police murder of George Floyd, an unarmed black man, in Minneapolis.

    Bystander video captures Mr Rittenhouse being chased into the car park of a used car dealership by Joseph Rosenbaum, 36.

    Moments later, unseen on video, Mr Rittenhouse fires four times and kills Rosenbaum.

    As he runs down the street away from the scene, Mr Rittenhouse falls and multiple people converge upon him.

    Anthony Huber, 26, hits him in the head and neck with a skateboard. Mr Rittenhouse kills him with a bullet to the stomach.

    Gaige Grosskreutz, 27, approaches him with a pistol in hand. Mr Rittenhouse wounds him with a shot in the arm.

    He is now facing six counts, including reckless homicide, intentional homicide and recklessly endangering safety.

    If convicted of the most serious charges, he could spend decades in prison.

    The prosecution and defence made their opening arguments in court on Tuesday.

    What is Rittenhouse's defence?
    Attorneys for Mr Rittenhouse claim he came to Kenosha to protect businesses from looters and rioters, not to harm anyone.

    Arguing he had no choice but to shoot at the men he engaged with, they will try to show that each individual attacked Mr Rittenhouse or tried to grab his gun.

    Dominic Black, who allegedly supplied Mr Rittenhouse with his rifle illegally and faces his own trial, testified on Wednesday that his friend called him shortly after the incident. He told the court Mr Rittenhouse had been "really scared" and felt threatened.

    The defence is also likely to present evidence that Mr Rittenhouse was carrying a first aid kit and had friendly interactions with police that led him to believe he was doing the right thing.

    In the aftermath of the shooting, Kenosha police were captured on video tossing bottles of water to Mr Rittenhouse and other armed civilians.

    "We appreciate you guys, we really do," one grateful officer is heard saying.

    Mr Rittenhouse's defenders say he was exercising his right to bear arms, in defence of liberty.

    Both Mr Rittenhouse's $2m (£1.5m) bail and his legal defence fund were covered by fundraising online.

    In a video released by Mr Rittenhouse's legal team last year, a voice declared he was "being sacrificed by politicians. Their end game is to strip away the constitutional right of all citizens to defend our communities".

    What do prosecutors need to prove?
    Kenosha County Assistant District Attorney Thomas Binger and his team of prosecutors will need to persuade the jury that Mr Rittenhouse was not acting in self-defence.

    They will argue he was a "teenage vigilante" who came to Kenosha "with the intent to violently clash with those opposed to his beliefs
    fellmann likes this.
  3. fellmann

    fellmann Esoteric Supporter Premier Member

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    IMHO.. He acted in self defense.
    I have seen many videos regarding this case. The criminal "protesters" chased and hunted this guy all over that place.
    RCoulter52 likes this.
  4. MikeD

    MikeD I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    I was not there so I don't know.

    It would appear he may have broken some laws by being armed at his age.

    I di not feel that negates his self defense claim.

    From what I have heard and seen in videos he may have a good case.

    I sounds like the judge is trying to keep it fair for him.

    I don't think he will walk away without anything but my feeling is that his self defense case will hold.

    We will have to see how it plays out, what evidence is allowed and how the jury decides.

    The rules of courtrooms are different than the real world so it all comes down to what the jury is presented and determines.
    RCoulter52, John A. and fellmann like this.
  5. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    If I were on the jury, based on what I know of the case, including the recent revelations that the government had aerial surveillance of him being shot at and chased, and the prosecution wanted to make it a political case, I would acquit him.
    RCoulter52 and fellmann like this.
  6. fellmann

    fellmann Esoteric Supporter Premier Member

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    Kyle Rittenhouse shooting breakdown: murder or self defense?



    Kyle Rittenhouse Update



    Kyle Rittenhouse's attorney says his client acted in self-defense

    Last edited: Nov 5, 2021
  7. Bobster

    Bobster .30-06 Supporter

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    2,675
    I believe it was self-defense. BUT, I think walking around carrying an AR like that would make it a more volatile situation--maybe he should have had it slung on his shoulder or hanging from his chest (1-point). To a jury, I think a pistol would be a more suitable "self-defense" firearm away from home or shop. I don't see a problem with ready carry in front of a business protecting it--you throw a brick at me, I'm going to throw some lead at you... I would still use a paintball gun with fire-armed backup--paintballs to the face are not fun, especially pepper-filled balls. ;)
    RCoulter52 likes this.
  8. Scoop

    Scoop .30-06

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    QOM> What do prosecutors need to prove?

    The prosecutors do not have to prove anything. They have to DISPROVE one of the Elements of Self-Defense
    Read the following explanation from Attorney Andrew F. Branca

    The following is from LINK> Rittenhouse Trial Day 3: Prosecution’s Own Witnesses Confound Prosecution – Law of Self Defense

    Kyle Rittenhouse is presumed innocent, and that means that his shooting of the three men, and the reasonableness of his conduct otherwise the night of August 25, 2020, is presumed to be justified as lawful self-defense, unless the state can disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Now, the prosecution doesn’t have to disprove Kyle’s claim of self-defense in its entirety. The prosecution merely needs to disprove any one of the four elements that make up that claim of self-defense. These four elements are cumulative—meaning, every one of the four is required—so if even a single one is disproven beyond a reasonable doubt, Kyle’s legal justification of self-defense collapses entirely.

    To those who are new to self-defense law, or would just like a quick refresh on the concepts of the elements of self-defense, here are those four elements, and how the state would typically be expected to disprove them.

    Innocence: The state might attempt to prove that it was Kyle who was the initial unlawful aggressor in any of the confrontations he was in that night.

    Imminence: The state might attempt to prove that the attacks Kyle was defending himself against were neither actually in progress or immediately about to occur.

    Proportionality: The state might attempt to prove that the attacks on Kyle did not present as apparently deadly force in nature—readily capable of causing death or serious bodily injury—and therefore that his own use of deadly defensive force was excessive.

    Reasonableness: The state might attempt to prove either that Kyle lacked a genuine belief in the need to act in self-defense, or that this belief was irrational and not objectively reasonable under the circumstances.

    And, of course, whichever element (or elements) the state sought to target in its attack on Kyle’s claim of self-defense, it would need to disprove beyond any reasonable doubt.
    RCoulter52 likes this.
  9. Rodburner

    Rodburner .270 WIN

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    Here’s my fart in church…he was scared,so he borrows a weapon, crosses state lines and goes straight to what he presumably was afraid off and then is amazed that other people attempt to stop him. Like others here,I’m not a lawyer, BUT, I am an opinionated son of a bitch, and this punk needs to be in prison or punished in some way. What’s he gonna be scared of next and go running toward?
    RCoulter52 likes this.
  10. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    The second amendment is a funny thing.

    It's just as important as 1A, which you are using right now. I don't agree with you, but I'll defend your right to say it. Unfortunately, doesn't seem like you'd support my right to use one. And I really cannot understand how anyone could vote democrat anyway if they want to have their gun maybe you can keep it, but again, I support your right to do it even if I feel it's the most idotic thing to do short of knowingly drinking poison. I know I don't want to drink any of the kool aid that the democrats have been pushing.

    Kenosha wasn't a protest either. It was a riot. Pure carnage.
    https://www.dcclothesline.com/2020/...tists-are-actively-trying-to-spark-civil-war/

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=kenosha riot&t=newext&atb=v251-1&pn=1&iax=images&ia=images

    The 2a isn't about hunting deer. No more than the 1A is about burning down cities. He was shot at, he defended himself. Even if I had not heard about him being shot at, I knew he was attacked and bludgeoned with a skateboard. You can be killed with far less. So, to me, was still self defense had the dumbass not been trying to knock him out or kill him in the first place.

    Was it smart to be there? Nope. But stupidity isn't against the law nor what he was charged with.

    I have a sneaky suspicion that if he hadn't resisted and had been killed, that you'd probably be OK with that.

    Aren't you around the chaz capital hill autonomous zone? How's that working out?
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  11. Rodburner

    Rodburner .270 WIN

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    I voted for several Republicans too…lol I don’t see this case as a 2a case at all. He went looking for trouble, under age, borrowed a gun, and crossed state lines. But I won’t be the one on the jury, so he still has the chance to plead self defense, unlike the people he killed. And, I don’t live in Seattle, but the Chaz is long gone, the precinct is back to near normal, and everything is back to its homeless/ COVID stupid stuff..
    RCoulter52 likes this.
  12. John A.

    John A. Unconstitutional laws are not laws. Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    What do you consider self defense?

    C'mon man. I don't know where you come up with some of this crazy stuff at.

    They're the ones that should've been charged for at least assault, if not attempted murder. Had they lived. They were the ones attacking him.

    At any time, have you seen where Kyle Rittenhouse was the first to attack anyone?

    I haven't.

    So, if he was not attacking, that means he was defending.

    From the people attacking him.

    Gee willikers guy. You should really switch to decaf.
  13. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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    Having watched the video evidence when it unfolded and evidence of what lead up to this plus the violent records of those he shot and killed. Dude walks. It’s just the state trying to break a common man at this point.
  14. Scoop

    Scoop .30-06

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    WM> Dude walks.

    I agree. I think the prosecution team is just barely able to tread water. They don't have much of a case to work with.
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  15. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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    every single video evidence shows he wasn’t an aggressor, was actively fleeing violence and used deadly force when there was potential to him receiving severe bodily injury or death.

    1) being chased by a man actively trying to disarm him which could be used to kill him with.

    2) attacked with a skateboard after he had fell.

    3) man drew his gun on him at close distance which resulted in the man’s bicep being shot.

    considering there’s video evidence of Kyle stating he’s there to protect property and render medical assistance. While there’s also video evidence of those he shot commitng property damage.

    The reason why he was chased it’s assumed was because he put out a dumpster fire with a fire extinguisher. Which is also on video.
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  16. Rodburner

    Rodburner .270 WIN

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    No matter what I type, you wouldn’t understand the spirit in which it was written. Sorry..
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
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  17. MikeD

    MikeD I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    Every witness the prosecution is presenting is actually helping the defense.

    Remove Kyles gun from the equation and we all know he would be dead now or beaten near death. These guys were actively pursuing Kyle despite the fact that he was armed.

    After the Chauven verdict, you never know which way these will go but the defense seems to have a solid self defense case.
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  18. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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    helps EVERYONE was filming and felt it necessary to post it on the internet.
    fellmann and MikeD like this.
  19. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

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    carbinemike and fellmann like this.
  20. fellmann

    fellmann Esoteric Supporter Premier Member

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    Important witnesses & testimonies..

    Kyle Rittenhouse trial witness says victim lunged toward gun



    Gaige Grosskreutz ADMITS He Pointed Gun Directly At Rittenhouse Before He Was Shot



    Oh dear.....

    palm.png
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021
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