Snowman366
.410
I ran across a down and dirty ammo test that I and a couple other officers did about four years ago, not long before I retired. We (the firearms training staff) were talking about active shooters and the hazards of barrier penetration inside a building. Specifically, we were discussing an active shooter scenario inside a school, and the penetration of our standard issue ammo versus the 8-inch cinder block interior walls found in most of the area schools.
One lieutenant we had asserted that buckshot and slugs were far too dangerous to use in a scenario like that. He amazingly predicted that buckshot would bounce from wall to wall, endangering innocents and officers alike. Then he took us out behind the range house and set an 8-inch cinder block on the remains of a tree stump and shot it with a 12-gauge rifled slug. It naturally cracked and came apart in a number of large pieces. I was astonished he'd say something like that, and pointed out to the LT that if you had mortared the same block into a wall, it wouldn't have broken apart. He insisted it wouldn't make any difference. So, after an exchange of very colorful language in the manner of old cops, I set out to do a test.
They were demolishing an old section of a local elementary school here that was built in the mid-1960's. The place had been stripped of everything and only had the shell of the building with walls built of 12-inch concrete blocks...and a few interior walls built of 8-inch concrete blocks...still standing. The interior walls did not have any insulation material in the hollow spaces of the blocks. Additionally, the blocks used in the construction of this building's walls were found to be porous, expanded-shale, or "cinder" blocks...as opposed to the heavier, older-style non-porous "cement" blocks.
8-inch concrete block walls are extremely common inside schools and other public buildings here locally and, naturally, have figured into the worries attendant to any hostage rescue, or "active shooter" scenario. I'm sure you've seen tests of ammunition against 12-inch concrete blocks before, perhaps even tested a few of them yourself, but we had no info on how our service ammo would act if it struck an 8-inch interior concrete block wall. Would it ricochet, sending lead and concrete fragments flying throughout a room...or over-penetrate, or cause spalling that would be a hazard to officers as well as innocents? We had lots of "opinions", as you might imagine, but no hard information.
Unable to pass it up, I took the opportunity to test our service ammo, with special interest in our 12-gauge buckshot and rifled slug loads.
Ammo used:
Federal 12-gauge (low recoil) "Tactical" rifled slug
Remington 12-gauge (low-recoil) 8-pellet 00-buckshot
Federal .40 S&W 165-grain "Tactical" jhp
Winchester 9mm 147-grain "Ranger-T" jhp
Weapons used:
Ithaca "LAPD Model" 12-gauge pump w/18.5-inch barrel
Glock M22 .40 caliber pistol
Ruger P89 9mm pistol
--------------------
Five (5) Federal rifled slugs were fired straight-on at an 8-inch block wall from a distance of 50 feet. Each rifled slug struck the weakest part of an individual block, i.e., that section of the 8-inch block that was not supported by the "web" within the block.
NONE of the Federal rifled slugs perforated the wall, nor did they cause impact fragments to fly on the near side, or spalling on the far side of the same wall. In fact, looking at the far side of the same wall, you'd have no idea that the other side of the wall had a two-inch hole from a one-ounce shotgun slug.
--------------------
Five (5) Federal rifled slugs were fired so as to intentionally ricochet off of one wall and strike another wall at the far end of the room, some 40 feet distant from the point of ricochet. The fired slugs impacted the first wall at a 20-degree angle, ricocheted down the length of that wall and struck the next 90-degree wall about 5-to-6 inches out from the wall that they'd ricocheted off. The slugs each smashed through the near side of the individual 8-inch blocks that they struck, but did not perforate the impact wall itself, nor cause fragments to fly on either side of the impact wall. The rifled slugs each caused a puff of gray dust when they struck and ricocheted off the first wall. The dust cloud raised would not have obscured further additional shots, if needed.
--------------------
The same type of test was repeated using Remington 8-pellet 00-buckshot loads. Five (5) 00-buckshot loads were fired straight-on at an 8-inch block wall from a distance of 50 feet. NONE of the 00-buckshot pellets "bounced back" at the (admittedly nervous) shooter, nor did their impact cause any concrete dust or fragments to fly. Most of the buckshot pellets buried themselves about a quarter-inch or so into the cinder blocks, while a few of the pellets dropped to the floor immediately below their POI, completely spent.
--------------------
Five (5) Remingtom 00-buckshot loads were intentionally ricocheted off one wall at 20 and 30-degree angles and into the next 90-degree wall about 40 feet distant from the point of ricochet. The buckshot pellets struck the impact wall about 8-to-10 inches out from the wall they'd ricocheted off. The 00-buck pellets struck the 90-degree impact wall, barely dimpled its surface and fell harmlessly to the floor immediately below its POI. The buckshot pellets did not ricochet off the second wall they struck, despite dire predictions that they would do so. Again, there was a dust cloud raised by the ricocheted pellets, but not as large as the one kicked up by the rifled slugs.
--------------------
Five (5) each of the Federal .40 S&W and Winchester 9mm loads were fired straight-on at an 8-inch block wall from a distance of 50 feet. NONE of the handgun bullets "bounced back" at the shooter or caused any fragments to fly. The handgun loads, regardless of caliber, buried themselves into the cinder block surface on impact about the length of the bullet's body with the base still visible in most instances.
--------------------
Five (5) each of the Federal .40 S&W and Winchester 9mm loads were intentionally ricocheted off one wall at a 20-degree angle and into the next 90-degree wall about 40 feet distant from the point of ricochet. The ricocheted bullets struck the impact wall about 6-to-7 inches out from the wall they'd ricocheted off. They'd lost so much impact velocity during the ricochet that each of them barely scuffed the block wall that they struck.
--------------------
Even an 8-inch concrete block wall appears to be pretty good cover, at least from the rounds we tested, and the predicted hazards from shooting in a cinder-block walled room, i.e., bouncing projectiles and flying concrete fragments, never occurred. While there are other angles of impact and ricochet that could possibly present different hazards for discharging a firearm in a room built of this sort of building material, a great deal was learned by this simple series of tests. It's always best to address and attempt to answer questions well before any need to implement deadly force in a high-risk scenario.
I came back a day later and tried the testing with full-power Federal 12-gauge Foster slugs, and they were no different than the low-recoil version. Only difference I saw was the full-power slugs' entrance hole on one side of the block was perhaps a quarter-inch or so larger in diameter than the low-recoil slugs. The impact cloud of dust was a bit larger, too. But they still didn't fully penetrate the 8-inch block wall.
Presumably if you were to pick one spot on an 8-inch block wall, and pound it repeatedly, it would eventually start spalling fragments off the far side and soon fully penetrate the wall. But in the moving, fluid dynamic of a rescue operation, we couldn't think of many instances where the rescuers' gunfire would hit the same exact spot on a wall over and over before the situation was terminated.
One lieutenant we had asserted that buckshot and slugs were far too dangerous to use in a scenario like that. He amazingly predicted that buckshot would bounce from wall to wall, endangering innocents and officers alike. Then he took us out behind the range house and set an 8-inch cinder block on the remains of a tree stump and shot it with a 12-gauge rifled slug. It naturally cracked and came apart in a number of large pieces. I was astonished he'd say something like that, and pointed out to the LT that if you had mortared the same block into a wall, it wouldn't have broken apart. He insisted it wouldn't make any difference. So, after an exchange of very colorful language in the manner of old cops, I set out to do a test.
They were demolishing an old section of a local elementary school here that was built in the mid-1960's. The place had been stripped of everything and only had the shell of the building with walls built of 12-inch concrete blocks...and a few interior walls built of 8-inch concrete blocks...still standing. The interior walls did not have any insulation material in the hollow spaces of the blocks. Additionally, the blocks used in the construction of this building's walls were found to be porous, expanded-shale, or "cinder" blocks...as opposed to the heavier, older-style non-porous "cement" blocks.
8-inch concrete block walls are extremely common inside schools and other public buildings here locally and, naturally, have figured into the worries attendant to any hostage rescue, or "active shooter" scenario. I'm sure you've seen tests of ammunition against 12-inch concrete blocks before, perhaps even tested a few of them yourself, but we had no info on how our service ammo would act if it struck an 8-inch interior concrete block wall. Would it ricochet, sending lead and concrete fragments flying throughout a room...or over-penetrate, or cause spalling that would be a hazard to officers as well as innocents? We had lots of "opinions", as you might imagine, but no hard information.
Unable to pass it up, I took the opportunity to test our service ammo, with special interest in our 12-gauge buckshot and rifled slug loads.
Ammo used:
Federal 12-gauge (low recoil) "Tactical" rifled slug
Remington 12-gauge (low-recoil) 8-pellet 00-buckshot
Federal .40 S&W 165-grain "Tactical" jhp
Winchester 9mm 147-grain "Ranger-T" jhp
Weapons used:
Ithaca "LAPD Model" 12-gauge pump w/18.5-inch barrel
Glock M22 .40 caliber pistol
Ruger P89 9mm pistol
--------------------
Five (5) Federal rifled slugs were fired straight-on at an 8-inch block wall from a distance of 50 feet. Each rifled slug struck the weakest part of an individual block, i.e., that section of the 8-inch block that was not supported by the "web" within the block.
NONE of the Federal rifled slugs perforated the wall, nor did they cause impact fragments to fly on the near side, or spalling on the far side of the same wall. In fact, looking at the far side of the same wall, you'd have no idea that the other side of the wall had a two-inch hole from a one-ounce shotgun slug.
--------------------
Five (5) Federal rifled slugs were fired so as to intentionally ricochet off of one wall and strike another wall at the far end of the room, some 40 feet distant from the point of ricochet. The fired slugs impacted the first wall at a 20-degree angle, ricocheted down the length of that wall and struck the next 90-degree wall about 5-to-6 inches out from the wall that they'd ricocheted off. The slugs each smashed through the near side of the individual 8-inch blocks that they struck, but did not perforate the impact wall itself, nor cause fragments to fly on either side of the impact wall. The rifled slugs each caused a puff of gray dust when they struck and ricocheted off the first wall. The dust cloud raised would not have obscured further additional shots, if needed.
--------------------
The same type of test was repeated using Remington 8-pellet 00-buckshot loads. Five (5) 00-buckshot loads were fired straight-on at an 8-inch block wall from a distance of 50 feet. NONE of the 00-buckshot pellets "bounced back" at the (admittedly nervous) shooter, nor did their impact cause any concrete dust or fragments to fly. Most of the buckshot pellets buried themselves about a quarter-inch or so into the cinder blocks, while a few of the pellets dropped to the floor immediately below their POI, completely spent.
--------------------
Five (5) Remingtom 00-buckshot loads were intentionally ricocheted off one wall at 20 and 30-degree angles and into the next 90-degree wall about 40 feet distant from the point of ricochet. The buckshot pellets struck the impact wall about 8-to-10 inches out from the wall they'd ricocheted off. The 00-buck pellets struck the 90-degree impact wall, barely dimpled its surface and fell harmlessly to the floor immediately below its POI. The buckshot pellets did not ricochet off the second wall they struck, despite dire predictions that they would do so. Again, there was a dust cloud raised by the ricocheted pellets, but not as large as the one kicked up by the rifled slugs.
--------------------
Five (5) each of the Federal .40 S&W and Winchester 9mm loads were fired straight-on at an 8-inch block wall from a distance of 50 feet. NONE of the handgun bullets "bounced back" at the shooter or caused any fragments to fly. The handgun loads, regardless of caliber, buried themselves into the cinder block surface on impact about the length of the bullet's body with the base still visible in most instances.
--------------------
Five (5) each of the Federal .40 S&W and Winchester 9mm loads were intentionally ricocheted off one wall at a 20-degree angle and into the next 90-degree wall about 40 feet distant from the point of ricochet. The ricocheted bullets struck the impact wall about 6-to-7 inches out from the wall they'd ricocheted off. They'd lost so much impact velocity during the ricochet that each of them barely scuffed the block wall that they struck.
--------------------
Even an 8-inch concrete block wall appears to be pretty good cover, at least from the rounds we tested, and the predicted hazards from shooting in a cinder-block walled room, i.e., bouncing projectiles and flying concrete fragments, never occurred. While there are other angles of impact and ricochet that could possibly present different hazards for discharging a firearm in a room built of this sort of building material, a great deal was learned by this simple series of tests. It's always best to address and attempt to answer questions well before any need to implement deadly force in a high-risk scenario.
I came back a day later and tried the testing with full-power Federal 12-gauge Foster slugs, and they were no different than the low-recoil version. Only difference I saw was the full-power slugs' entrance hole on one side of the block was perhaps a quarter-inch or so larger in diameter than the low-recoil slugs. The impact cloud of dust was a bit larger, too. But they still didn't fully penetrate the 8-inch block wall.
Presumably if you were to pick one spot on an 8-inch block wall, and pound it repeatedly, it would eventually start spalling fragments off the far side and soon fully penetrate the wall. But in the moving, fluid dynamic of a rescue operation, we couldn't think of many instances where the rescuers' gunfire would hit the same exact spot on a wall over and over before the situation was terminated.
