Discussion in 'Law Enforcement And Military' started by Brookelynngreen, Jun 4, 2012.
What kind of shotguns do the military currently use?
wonder why they dont use AA12 ?
That's a good question.....that thing is awesome.....
Cost is likely the major factor.
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The AA12, as badass as it is, is still a niche weapon. There's something to be said about being able to unload a 20rd drum in about four seconds, but other than that it doesn't offer any real basic performance advantage over existing pump or semi-auto platforms already in deployment. The fact that the military can purchase several 500/590s or 870s for the cost of one AA12 doesn't help its case either. The platform is a great innovation, but one that really isn't practical...
Mainly because there is no need to, it is a limited application weapon, and it would seriously complicate logistics.
OFM has the vast majority of sales since GWOT. Almost exclusively 500/590. The A1 has some presence.
The 870 MCS is the only Remington being purchased from Remington in numbers.
The M1014 is in limited use by the Marines almost exclusively.
The little rail mounted LSS was present on an extremely small basis.
Obviously the go fast types do their own thing a lot.
Couldn’t be used in a normal shotgun role ? just with full auto capabilities, doesn’t seem like logistics would change too much other than storing and transporting more 12 ga shells, additional mags, parts.....I am only educated in forest fire logistics though so I don’t know lol....I am thinking more like if it replaced something rather than just an addition to.
Can a guy use those little HE rounds in any SG ?
Saw some show where they hooked two of those to one of those little bots like they use for bomb disposal.....looked mean
Yes and no.
A lot of shotgun use is for breaching. Breaching rounds tend to be low pressure, meaning they will not cycle autos. That is one of the problems with the M1014. So the AA won't work there.
Also, the shotgun is a fairly limited role weapon to begin with, so it isn't exactly worth bringing in an exotic platform.
That's quite a bit right there. Add in training and stuff like LCE to support it as well.
But don't just look at big picture logs, look at the individual troop saddled with that thing.
He's got a shotgun that has a high ROF. Sounds great, until you have to keep that thing fed. Now you've got something that will blow through a mag about half the size of a SAW can in short order. Now he can carry maybe six of those things, possibly four in about the same real estate. That means he's out of the fight pretty quickly unless somebody's feeding him mags. Add in that his effective range is very short using buck or even slugs. That makes for a troop with a limited capacity weapon, that doesn't shoot what most of the rest of the troops shoot, and is limited in range compared to the rest of the troops. So that changes things quite a bit.
No problem with that. The problem is that something that size and with mags that size it is going to have to replace something else because it is too big to be carried along with another primary.
I really don't recall. We beat this topic to death over on SGW several times, and I think the info was in there about if they could be fired out of standard shotguns.
Yeah, but looking mean =/= it is a good idea for an intended role.
On the subject of the AA12 and the ROF; I'll draw a comparrison on the effectiveness of goin from single shot (even semi auto) to full auto.
This is just me thinkin and I dont know the relevance or correlation when considering it as a primary arm beyond whats been listed already.
I was recently speakin to a VietNam Vet and retired LEO of 30 years. He said that in VietNam, when a firefight began and bullets started flyin, the guys with rifles would fire and fire, but everytime you heard a shotgun, another body dropped from the fight.
The question here is, does the ROF play a part in preventing the AA12 from seein service? Is it felt that the single shot and limited capacity make shotgun users more efficient in whatever role thay have in a unit?
The immediate assumption with that is that you are describing 100% accuracy. That is typically NOT the case.
Probably not specifically in those terms.
I sincerely doubt it. Shotguns are typcially anything not thought of as being efficient. Limited capacity is not something that is sought after, regardless of platform.
Somebody trained and experienced in shotgunning can be efficient, but that is not a common skill set.
Shotguns are typically used for prisoner handling, breaching, LL, and in some cases in very close fighting. Does the shotgun do well close in? Yes, it can. The AA would get around the normally limited capacity of pump guns and the Benelli, but in comparison with other mag fed weapons you can't carry a lot of ammunition because of its relative bulk. That means that one of the chief selling points of the AA is rendered moot because you can't keep it fed. If you're going to run it in semi, then what's the point?
Even apart from ROF, you have a weapon that is limited to about 100 yards. That's not good. You've got a troop that is going to be sitting out some fights and not able to contribute at longer ranges.
It is very limited in being able to punch armor or intermediate barriers with buckshot and slugs. The uberbuttstomper rounds are great, but that's something that really doesn't exist in the .mil where we can't even get reliable OTM rounds with factories running at max capacity.
Now add in the benefit of having all those various rounds for the AA, and you have a new problem: all those various rounds for the AA. The troop has to carry those, and keep them seperated from each other. That means he's going to have a fairly limited supply of the "exotics" if he's got to carry them himself. One man can only carry so much shotgun ammo in those big mags. In addition, as the situation changes, are we realistically going to expect the troop dragging this thing around to remove an unsuitable mag, retain it, replace it with the appropriate mag, and engage in the middle of a fight?
There's a reason the .mil doesn't use the AA12. Several really. They've been looked at, tested, examined. If there were enough there to make it worth while, somebody somewhere would be using it.
seems like a SG would be more at home in the jungle(Vietnam) , since long shots are not as common as open country....but I guess that’s my hunting side talking, aside from indoors it seems like you would even get a chance for longer shots in an urban situation than the jungle or thick conifer forest.
There is that.
Gotcha, thanks! In the story I related about shotguns in VietNam, he did mention the fire fights bein centered around villages, so I'm sure ranges were much closer...
My Pop is a retired Ranger Capt. He's never talked much about his time in Vietnam, but I do know his primary was a 12 gague.
One of Jenny's uncles was a retired Ranger too. Likewise he wouldnt talk about anything...
That gun while cool, is better off in a video game than most real world Military and Police applications.
We had Mossberg 500's on both my deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan. We had both the full stocks and pistol grips. Our Afghan deployment we never took them outside the wire so our SAW gunners walked around with them instead of carrying the heavy SAW.
We are just a regular ole light infantry unit, no fancy stuff here
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