Discussion in 'Law Enforcement And Military' started by Brookelynngreen, Jun 4, 2012.
I'll take simple function over any of the fancy stuff any day. Thank you for your service Sir...
The US Navy uses the Mossberg 500A1's and the 590's.
The Marines used the Mossberg 500A1's, Beretta TX4, and Benelli M4.
Not too sure about the Army and Air Force.
The Navy and Marines have been primarily interested in using pump action shotguns compared to the semi auto shotguns for the simple fact that they can jam from dust and debris. There is less moving parts as well. The Mossbergs are also very reliable for a VERY cheap price.
Just wondering what you're basing the TX4 and 500A1 usage on. Haven't heard or seen anything about those at all as far as the TX4, and the 500A1 was a production request by the Navy for a modified 500 back in the 80s.
As far as the Navy and MC wanting pumps, the Marines drove the M1014 program and are pretty much the only users of that shotgun.
I was a Gunners Mate onboard USS Rushmore, LSD-47. We had 10 Mossberg 500's and 500A1's onboard.
This is me with the 500A1
My buddy Williams shooting the Mossberg 500
The only reason I know that the Marines use the TX4 is because the Marines Armorers like to compare weapons with the GM's when they come onboard. They only had 2 of the TX4's and 1 Mossberg. I am not sure if those shotguns were on their way out of the Corps. Most of the shotguns were the Benelli's. What I never understood was why the Marines wanted to give up their SAW for our M60's?
The 500A1 was a wierd request originally from the 80s. The shotgun is essentially a 590A1 with 1.5" of barrel removed. I guess somebody high up decided that the extra 1.5" on the readily available existing shotgun had to go, but dropping down to another COTS 14.5" 590A1 was a no-go for some reason. Oh well, .gov purchasing does not always make sense. I completely forgot about a recent single source request on that shotgun from a few years ago, so I can completely see those still being in use even when the normal 500s and 590/590A1s are being bought.
There was also a 20" 500A1.
Now that I think of it, it may simply be that the arms locker racks were built to house the 17" barrels, and to keep from having to fab new racks or adapters they decided to stay with that barrel length. I can completely see that happening.
That's interesting. I've never heard or seen anything on the Marines using the TX4. I wonder if that was a go-fast purchase or something done with unit funds. The Marines' big shotgun purchases have been the 500/590/590A1, and then the 1014. The main reason the pump guns are still around is that the 1014 will not cycle breaching/LL rounds that they sometimes have to use, so some amount of pump guns have to stay in the inventory. I am curious about the story behind the TX4 being there, and how it got in the mix.
A lot of the SAWs are quite old, and very worn. That leads to lots of reliability issues. I would guess that is why, although it may also have been a desire for the 7.62 over the 5.56.
Of course, now a lot of the SAWs are being replaced with the IAR, so we are returning to the BAR philosophy but with a 5.56 version as opposed to a .30-06 version.
Thanks for the info and the pics.
I wish we had Mossy 590A1 and Benelli M4 Shotguns. In Afghanistan in 2006-07 my Infantry Brigade used mostly Mossy 500's. In Afghanistan in 2006-07 our Infantry Brigade used mostly Mossy 500's. We purchased from ChinaMart on the way there with Gov't credit cards as many Mossberg 500's as they had on hand.
Once in country some of our small 2-3 hummer Advisor teams even purchased homemade built Afghan made shotguns (scary quality).
The Rack theory makes perfect sense to me. But just like you, I never understood some of the logic behind the firearms purchases. However, I do like the 500 short barrel vs. the 590 longer barrel. This is solely based on the purpose of tactics on the ship. Some places were really tight and that extra 1.5" could mean life and death.
I can't tell you why the Marines had the TX4, but I only remember it because I wanted a semi-auto onboard my ship. But then I fell in love with my 500M's when I watch the TX4 jam a few times. I never had one problem with the Moss 500 operations. The only reason why we had any failure was because of operator error.
I never thought about the cycle problems with those rounds. I don't think the Mossberg's are ever going to go away in the military inventory. I love the semi-autos, but it's just a good excuse for wasting rounds, especially in the hands of the military kids.
I understood the fact that they were old, but my M60's were dated back to Vietnam. In fact, the latest M60 we received back was dated to before the Vietnam war. But she was a gorgeous beast.
I think the reason why they keep the saw is because the Marines still use the 5.56 with the M16/M4. That is the only reason I can come up with because we didn't have the M16 on my ship. We were still using the M14 which shoots the 7.62, which the M60 shot (of course).
Gotta give my service a place here as well... Coast Guard uses 16.5" barreled 870's... Kicks a bit, but I always have a blast (no pun intended) when I get time with this at the range (That's not me btw, just a google pic I found)
Cost, production sociability, need, parts commonality,... not to mention those they have are probably doing the job just fine.
One of the biggest mistakes the military ever made in my OPINION is put more than semi-auto in the hands of common soldiers. Waste of ammo which leads directly to degradation of marksmanship skills.
Burst and auto should be reserved for those weapons and weaponeers that actually need it. Unit machine gunners, saws etc,...
+1 I couldn't hit S**t the times we trained in auto... much rather have controlled quick bursts of semi!
Speaking of Military and full auto... :shock:
My son is on US Navy cruiser, he's also the ships SAMI(small arms marksmanship instructor) and VBSS (vessel boarding search and seizure) team. He's the first one over the rail on ships they have boarded and he carries a Mossberg 500. When it's CQB it's hard to beat a 12 guage. Yes I worry when he's out to sea boarding Dow's in the 5th Fleet AOR. Thats the wild west of the high seas. Phipp
That's a fine achievement and I know you are very proud. I'm glad to see he's well equipped with the 500. We owe you thanks for bringing him into this world and for supporting him as he serves our Country. Please thank him for us next time you speak...
phipp,congrats to you for raising him,,,,,and thank him for serving.
I've been trying to remember which shotgun I hauled around, back in the late 1980's, but I'm honestly not sure (USN). I did think it actually had wood furniture on it, though. Believe it or not, our side arms were 1911's. Take care. Tom Worthington
If my memory serves me in the mid '60's we had 1911A1 side arms, Remington 870's, and M1 grand. (USN)
He's the 4th straight generation sailor in my family. My great grandfather was a gunners mate, dad was a 1st class salvage diver (deep) , myself, Aviation Metal Smith, my son a gunners mate. I taught him firearms for the first 18 years He has taught me firearms since. He showed me how to build my 1st AR. I spent a week on Tiger Cruise, cruising from Pearl Harbor to San Diego learning how to field strip, clean and assemble M- 240B's ,M-2(maw duce) M-249, M-9,M-14 & M-4's. In my family it's kind of a rite of passage going to sea. I had the time of my life on that cruise with him. Ya, you could say i'm a proud pop!
That's awesome @phipp13 .
Quite the family history and definitely something to be proud of...
I'll chime in here for a second. I'm current active duty CG and was stationed on a 87 foot patrol cutter for a few years. I was part of the boarding team and boarded hundreds of boats. We had 2 Mossberg 500's as our duty shotguns that went over the rail on a daily basis. Close quarters combat is what we train for and why the 500 is the SG of choice. It's not heavy, short to maneuver through cramped quarters, and when someone on a boat is hunkered down waiting for you to come around the corner well I'd pick the 500 over the M-16 any day. Seeing the daily abuse we put those guns through is what I based my personal SG purchase on. Days after days of being exposed to salt water, dropped, bumped, loaded and unloaded multiple times per day, dirt, fish guts......you name it! Those things never let us down. We were lucky to never have to fire one other than for training but the military chooses some of the best and most durable weapons. Every weapon we had on board (.50 cal machine gun, M-16, the 500's, SIG .40) each was a tank, nearly indestructible, and built like a rock. Simplicity is another key to weapon selection. Breaking down all of those weapons could be done in a matter of minutes (even the .50) and usually without tools. My LE days are over but I do miss them and I'm glad to have had the Mossberg as my muscle.
Had occasion to use the Win Model 12 in 'nam. Good ol' slam fire shotty. That's what we had in TO&E at the time. Also the old WWII grease guns, and a few Thompsons as well as the standard issue M-14's, 1911a1's, etc., and various personal weapons and captures. You go to war with the weapons you have, not the ones you wish you had .
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