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Discussion in 'Long Guns' started by oli700, Feb 26, 2015.

  1. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    9,270
    Pistol cartridge long guns, explain to me what I am missing out on, educate me.

    They make 'em so people like them

    I can see some uses but I don't see what it can do that only it has to offer

    The only worthwhile thing I see about them is suppression

    now that I have put a couple rounds through my Rifle cartage pistol I just see no advantage other than suppression and in reality that saves on hearing protection.....in a straight gun fight no one cares, if your a sniper or assassin than yeah.....


    I want to hear more PRO from owners, here are my cons from a non owner


    1. Power, all combat handgun rounds are anemic compared to even small long gun cartridges. energy, velocity, range, accuracy, penetration, ammo selection all go to rifle rounds


    2. Length, taking a weak round away from a compact unit(handgun) and transferring it to a longer unwieldy
    package compared to a handgun
    A handgun is great for compactness not power, a long gun is great for power not compactness
    why would a person want to take the weakest traits from each platform and put them together ?

    3. Weight, again taking bad traits and putting them together. I haven't met a pistol cartridge long gun that has weighed less than a good no frills AR, Mini, M1 Carbine

    4. Capacity, not the mag but the person. Most pistol rounds of any substance weighs more and takes up more room in sq/in than 556, a medium rifle round

    5. Cost.....they aren't cheaper, the rounds aren't cheaper and in a lot of instances are a bit more expensive than a good medium rifle cartridge

    Where does one of these outshine a SBR ?.....
  2. tattooo

    tattooo .30-06

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    1,283
    I don't see the point of many firearms .... some are just cool novelties that may or may not be practical for every scenario ... if you can afford em grab em...if you cant and need to be selective on a handful of go to guns then PCC s & other niche guns may not be for you ....
    oli700 likes this.
  3. Deog

    Deog .30-06 BANNED

    Messages:
    1,135
    I like that my marlin 1894s will share ammo with my Blackhawk.

    I have been wanting a beretta cx4 storm pistol caliber carbine for a while, fun to shoot In a nifty
    Title package.
    tattooo and oli700 like this.
  4. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    9,270
    so for me I guess something needs to be purpose driven......I am that way with everything.....

    so fun factor is good, I get that from everything that burns gunpowder

    I own over 40 firearms.....I appreciate the collector aspect and can identify purpose in all of them, some do the same things

    Anyway just wondering if I am off the mark on thinking over pistol cartridge long guns , or if anyone can bring something to the discussion that makes me go "oh, ok"
  5. John A.

    John A. I'm "THAT" guy Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    15,132
    Here are some of my opinions in red for direct replies. Feel free to pick them apart at your leisure, but here are some of my reasons.

    QUOTE="oli700

    Pistol cartridge long guns, explain to me what I am missing out on, educate me.

    They make 'em so people like them

    Since their creation in the early 1900's, pistol calibers have been pretty ideal for short range weapons that have a lot of firepower. Firepower in this sense relates to fairly large capacity magazines.

    I guess where history is concerned, pistol calibers became popular between WW1 and WW2. There were numerous pistol caliber submachineguns and virtually every country had their own versions. Stens, Sterlings, Tommy Guns, PPsh, MP38/40, Reisings, Suomi, etc etc etc.

    And as you noted, there were many that were adapted for clandestine purpose like the gold standard of special ops weaponry, the coveted Delisle. As history would have it, the originals were done with 22LR in mind, but Brittain wanted a larger caliber, so they teamed with the US and they ultimately chose the 45acp.

    I stuck very close to the design of the Delisle when I made my 22LR suppressed upper and I must say, that I understand why there were some early prototypes in 22LR because they excel in suppression and is down right spooky quiet.

    But back to the subject of pistol cal weapons, most were issued in full auto form primarily to tank crews and close support troops and the likes. For their roles, they did very well.


    I can see some uses but I don't see what it can do that only it has to offer

    There are no perfect guns. That's why we have choices. I'll never claim that a subgun is a perfect gun, any more than I will ever claim that a rifle caliber or anything else is a perfect platform for everything either.

    The only worthwhile thing I see about them is suppression

    They do excel at suppression. Or relatively speaking in some circumstances at least if you have a subsonic load.

    That comes in very handy when you are not wanting to let everyone in your general vicinity know your business.


    now that I have put a couple rounds through my Rifle cartage pistol I just see no advantage other than suppression and in reality that saves on hearing protection.....in a straight gun fight no one cares, if your a sniper or assassin than yeah.....

    I'm not an assassin, nor a sniper, but statistically, most gunfights are going to be over relatively quickly.

    And putting rounds on target is important no matter what you're using.
    Whether that's 9mm, 45 ACP, or 223 or 308 or whatever you are firing. If you're not hitting anything, it doesn't matter if you're shooting a bazooka or a slingshot.

    I will say that I do not feel out gunned when I have my submachine in hand. In all honesty, I prefer mine for that role and I wouldn't recommend anyone to break into my house and try to prove otherwise.

    I want to hear more PRO from owners, here are my cons from a non owner

    1. Power, all combat handgun rounds are anemic compared to even small long gun cartridges. energy, velocity, range, accuracy, penetration, ammo selection all go to rifle rounds

    Correct that handgun calibers are usually going to have less energy/velocity and range. But handgun calibers were never meant for (long) range, but if you're going to compare them to a handgun, I can shoulder a long gun and shoot more accurately and at farther distance, and with increased power if you're going to compare apples to a handgun.

    Just because they shoot a handgun bullet, does not mean they're essentially the same thing.

    Would you want someone to shoot you with a 9mm? Or a string of them?

    Would you want someone to shoot you with a 45ACP?

    Fact is, I bet you don't. And is exactly why pistol caliber carbines or subguns have hung a lot of tags on a lot of toes regardless of what you're firing them out of.


    2. Length, taking a weak round away from a compact unit(handgun) and transferring it to a longer unwieldy
    package compared to a handgun
    A handgun is great for compactness not power, a long gun is great for power not compactness
    why would a person want to take the weakest traits from each platform and put them together ?

    I suppose that unwieldy would need to be defined in this instance. A shotgun is even longer than a rifle, and I know many people who use shotguns for HD in close quarters just fine.

    If you get hung up on numbers, it sounds bad on paper, but in life, what's the difference in maneuverability in carrying an M4 down your hallway than carrying a 16 inch barreled uzi?

    The answer may surprise you. Here are a few guns (none NFA) for size comparison. As you can see, the semi auto uzi is the most compact of the lot of them. And if you want to me to get more pictures in their usually true SBR (short) form, they are even more compact.

    size comparisons 001.JPG

    3. Weight, again taking bad traits and putting them together. I haven't met a pistol cartridge long gun that has weighed less than a good no frills AR, Mini, M1 Carbine

    It all depends. Some are heavier than others. Anything originally designed to fire from a big open bolt is going to be heavy. Mac's, Uzi's, and the likes are heavier than stens and MP5's, which my MP5K sbr may weigh 5-6 pounds loaded with a 40 round magazine (if that much). Again, it's hard to put everything in the same basket because there are so many different designs and styles.

    I don't want to say that all 308 rifles weigh a lot because that's not exactly how things are in life.


    4. Capacity, not the mag but the person. Most pistol rounds of any substance weighs more and takes up more room in sq/in than 556, a medium rifle round.

    That's just logistics. Most pistol cal mags are longer, but skinnier and less than half the width of an AR mag.

    Here are 4 magazines for an honest to goodness comparison.

    uzi 32 round magazine 115 gr steel cased ammunition 19.8 ounces
    Suomi 36 round magazines 147 gr ammunition 26.3 ounces
    AR15 Colts magazine loaded with M855 ammunition 17.3 ounces
    AK47 Euro surplus magazine loaded with 124 gr steel case ammo 29.2 ounces

    mag size 001.JPG

    5. Cost.....they aren't cheaper, the rounds aren't cheaper and in a lot of instances are a bit more expensive than a good medium rifle cartridge

    Where does one of these outshine a SBR ?.....

    I guess bueaty and need and want is in the eye of the beholder. But I don't feel outgunned with either pistol cal or rifle caliber for HD purposes, and to be perfectly honest, I will often grab a pistol cal during tornado warnings and the likes when I head to the basement/shelter.
  6. tattooo

    tattooo .30-06

    Messages:
    1,283
    I have a whole new respect for you John ....... very intelligent and thorough ..... couldn't have put it better myself if i tried
    ripjack13 likes this.
  7. John A.

    John A. I'm "THAT" guy Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    15,132
    Ain't nothin'.
    ripjack13 and tattooo like this.
  8. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    9,270
    But back to the subject of pistol cal weapons, most were issued in full auto form primarily to tank crews and close support troops and the likes. For their roles, they did very well.

    Short rifles weren't that available then

    I can see some uses but I don't see what it can do that only it has to offer

    There are no perfect guns. That's why we have choices. I'll never claim that a subgun is a perfect gun, any more than I will ever claim that a rifle caliber or anything else is a perfect platform for everything either.

    Agreed, however there are a lot that are a lot closer than others


    The only worthwhile thing I see about them is suppression

    They do excel at suppression. Or relatively speaking in some circumstances at least if you have a subsonic load.

    That comes in very handy when you are not wanting to let everyone in your general vicinity know your business.



    Meh

    now that I have put a couple rounds through my Rifle cartage pistol I just see no advantage other than suppression and in reality that saves on hearing protection.....in a straight gun fight no one cares, if your a sniper or assassin than yeah.....

    I'm not an assassin, nor a sniper, but statistically, most gunfights are going to be over relatively quickly.

    And putting rounds on target is important no matter what you're using.
    Whether that's 9mm, 45 ACP, or 223 or 308 or whatever you are firing. If you're not hitting anything, it doesn't matter if you're shooting a bazooka or a slingshot.

    I will say that I do not feel out gunned when I have my submachine in hand. In all honesty, I prefer mine for that role and I wouldn't recommend anyone to break into my house and try to prove otherwise.

    Not following the relation , all that goes with all guns

    I want to hear more PRO from owners, here are my cons from a non owner

    1. Power, all combat handgun rounds are anemic compared to even small long gun cartridges. energy, velocity, range, accuracy, penetration, ammo selection all go to rifle rounds

    Correct that handgun calibers are usually going to have less energy/velocity and range.
    Always not usually


    But handgun calibers were never meant for (long) range, but if you're going to compare them to a handgun, I can shoulder a long gun and shoot more accurately and at farther distance, and with increased power if you're going to compare apples to a handgun.

    Exactly, so now that sbr is more prevalent than ever , it makes even less since, same package....more powerful round seems a no brainer

    Just because they shoot a handgun bullet, does not mean they're essentially the same thing.

    John, they are not the same but they are essentially the same. Length , weight, operation, feeding, cycling all make them essentially the same

    I compare the two platforms because they are essentially the same, the cartridge is where they differ the most


    Would you want someone to shoot you with a 9mm? Or a string of them?

    Hell no, but I would be more comfortable because #1 in conflict is create distance, cover......it's the part about a trained adversary creating distance that hurts the pistol cartridges cause. With a short rifle your better off in still being terminal as distance expands.

    Would you want someone to shoot you with a 45ACP?

    God no



    Fact is, I bet you don't. And is exactly why pistol caliber carbines or subguns have hung a lot of tags on a lot of toes regardless of what you're firing them out of.

    No doubt, lot of ways to die

    2. Length, taking a weak round away from a compact unit(handgun) and transferring it to a longer unwieldy
    package compared to a handgun
    A handgun is great for compactness not power, a long gun is great for power not compactness
    why would a person want to take the weakest traits from each platform and put them together ?

    I suppose that unwieldy would need to be defined in this instance. A shotgun is even longer than a rifle, and I know many people who use shotguns for HD id close quarters just fine.

    Official definition : the handling of a long gun is unwieldy compared to the pistol for which the cartridge is meant for

    If you get hung up on numbers, it sounds bad on paper, but in life, what's the difference in maneuverability in carrying an M4 down your hallway than carrying a 16 inch barreled uzi?



    The answer may surprise you. Here are a few guns (none NFA) for size comparison. As you can see, the semi auto uzi is the most compact of the lot of them. And if you want to me to get more pictures in their usually true SBR (short) form, they are even more compact.

    Ok, going by the pic the Uzi is only slightly shorter than your ar, weighs more and is less powerful, is that an accurate statement ?




    3. Weight, again taking bad traits and putting them together. I haven't met a pistol cartridge long gun that has weighed less than a good no frills AR, Mini, M1 Carbine

    It all depends. Some are heavier than others. Anything originally designed to fire from a big open bolt is going to be heavy. Mac's, Uzi's, and the likes are heavier than stens and MP5's, which my MP5K sbr may weigh 5-6 pounds loaded with a 40 round magazine (if that much). Again, it's hard to put everything in the same basket because there are so many different designs and styles.

    I don't want to say that all 308 rifles weigh a lot because that's not exactly how things are in life.

    That makes total since, 6 lbs with 40 rounds, this is the stuff I am fishing for.

    4. Capacity, not the mag but the person. Most pistol rounds of any substance weighs more and takes up more room in sq/in than 556, a medium rifle round.

    That's just logistics. Most pistol cal mags are longer, but skinnier and less than half the width of an AR mag.
    JUST logistics !?.....dude, wars are won on logistics


    Here are 4 magazines for an honest to goodness comparison.

    uzi 32 round magazine 115 gr steel cased ammunition 19.8 ounces
    Suomi 36 round magazines 147 gr ammunition 26.3 ounces
    AR15 Colts magazine loaded with M855 ammunition 17.3 ounces
    AK47 Euro surplus magazine loaded with 124 gr steel case ammo 29.2 ounces

    What I was getting at is pound for pound , power, versatility you simply get more bang per inch/lbs


    5. Cost.....they aren't cheaper, the rounds aren't cheaper and in a lot of instances are a bit more expensive than a good medium rifle cartridge

    Where does one of these outshine a SBR ?.....

    I guess bueaty and need and want is in the eye of the beholder. But I don't feel outgunned with either pistol cal or rifle caliber for HD purposes, and to be perfectly honest, I will often grab a pistol cal during tornado warnings and the likes when I head to the basement/shelter.

    yeah, that's why I have a red truck

    For HD I don't grab a long gun at all, my end all be all go to HD weapon is a 9mm pistol with a light on it

    I think along the lines of what these long guns were created for, warfare, end of days, SHTF a......whatever you like to call it

    I want to leave you with this one simple no explanation needed question

    SHTF, you have the Uzi and 500 rounds and your lil AR 500 rounds. You don't know when you are going to see home again and you can only take what you can carry on your back.....what do you grab ?






    thanks dude, I can always count on you for a good conversation

    On a side note mom walked about 25 feet today without the walker, woohoo
    ripjack13 likes this.
  9. LAZY EYED SNIPER

    LAZY EYED SNIPER Overwatch Staff Member Global Moderator Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    21,109
    I'd like to give a well thought out point/counter point opinion on the matter, but my motivation for buying the Ps90 and the KRISS were much more shallow.

    ...they looked like they'd be fun to shoot. Don't have a particular use for them, didn't "need" them, just wanted them...
    stigmata and oli700 like this.
  10. John A.

    John A. I'm "THAT" guy Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

    Messages:
    15,132
    I'm so glad that your Mom is doing better. We've still been praying for you guys.

    As for the 500 rounds, uzi or AR. While that question is uncertain and a lot of hypothetical, I'd pick the AR because it shoots farther and faster.

    For self defense/HD distances, it's a wash and both are dead nuts reliable. You put the bullet where it needs to go, dead is dead. Doesn't really matter how you get there, the result is likely to be the same.

    The only thing that a rifle trumps the pistol cal in HD distances is body armor. Which short of military conflict, is unlikely to be used anyway.

    SBR rifle (calibers) are still more powerful than pistol rounds. No argument from me there, and is exactly why over the last 20 years or so, more folks are continuing to move away from pistol cal carbines.

    With that said, I will throw you another bone to go along with that. Would pistol cal's be lacking in popularity if the gun laws regarding machineguns be different than they are today?

    A lot of the reason I think why many folks are moving away from pistol cal carbines, is because civilian legal machineguns are out of question. But that's a game changer at SD/HD distances. It really is. I can put twice as many rounds (or more) into something in the time it takes from a semi rifle.

    And many drug interdiction (swat) teams will raid a meth house with pistol cal's because the powder has a complete burn before the bullet exits the barrel, decreasing the risk of an explosion in volatile/flammable air environments.

    I know that probably isn't really adhering to the subject, but at HD/SD distances, submachinegun versus a semi, really, the smg trumps regardless of the bullet you're launching.

    In a long drawn out battle in open terrain. Give me an accurate semi auto rifle.

    In an abandoned cookie factory with lots of rooms you have to clear to get from one side to the other, give me a submachinegun.

    If I could only have one type of gun for everything, as bad as it pains me to say it, give me an AK.

    I know this is probably getting way off track, but it goes back to one of my initial comments. There are no perfect guns for everything. And why choices are good.

    I wouldn't want to cross the ocean in a john boat, and I wouldn't want to try to fly to the moon holding the tail of a kite.
    DHonovich likes this.
  11. MikeD

    MikeD I'm Your Huckleberry Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    12,031
    Because I can!!!! at least for the moment, ask again in a few years.....
    tattooo likes this.
  12. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    9,270
    and I get that too, I get that a lot....I'm just picking at the meat of it more or less. like why ride a quad when you can ride a bike, I like to learn from peoples reasoning....its how I better myself and gauge my own thought process
  13. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    9,270
    thanks for the prayers man, they been powerful

    thanks for the responses again, always food for thought ,you know there are no bounds to my threads to chat away from everyone else as well

    I have roughly the same preferences, we been around this too long. Personal preference aside I would be thrilled to be stuck with any functioning firearm I had ammo for.....concentrate on being a ghost lol
  14. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    9,270
    lol, that's really all the reason a person needs.....
  15. LAZY EYED SNIPER

    LAZY EYED SNIPER Overwatch Staff Member Global Moderator Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    21,109
    Understood.

    If that ends up being the case I'd be thrilled if it ends up being my 5.56 pistol...
    oli700 likes this.
  16. LAZY EYED SNIPER

    LAZY EYED SNIPER Overwatch Staff Member Global Moderator Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    21,109
    @oli700

    I wish your mom all the best and hope her health continues to improve...
    oli700 likes this.
  17. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    9,270
    and see , right there is a perfect example of something that I always thought was ok but since ownership I changed my opinion about it quite a bit. Initially I built one to do it and it was drastically different than anything I owned....now its so much more to me.
  18. John A.

    John A. I'm "THAT" guy Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator

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    15,132
    I like my shorty too.

    I built it in '06. And to be honest (knock on wood) it's not even had its' first failure yet.

    I was thinking of changing the extractor and spring this year just because.
    oli700 likes this.
  19. Tom396

    Tom396 .30-06

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    1,581
    I simply like that I can have the number of cartridges I keep up with to a minimum. .40 S&W handguns and .40 S&W Hi Point carbine. I have a .357 revolver and would like to find a cheap .357 lever gun too (yeah, right). I've even considered a Ruger 77/357 bolt action ... if they weren't so pricey. Take care. Tom Worthington
    oli700 likes this.
  20. Tom396

    Tom396 .30-06

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