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Would you renounce your faith?

I do know one thing. In that situation, at that given time, I would have been armed (without fear of prosecution) and would have be able to at least defend myself. It's crazy that more were not. But given the anti-gun sentiment driven into students by today's colleges it is not surprising.
 
It's interesting to note that those of you who would denounce your faith, will most likely be killed or shot/maimed anyhow.
No one likes a two face. And crazy m'efers hate those that have no conviction and will say anything to stay alive or those that stand for something and care not if they die....

We're screwed either way...
 
Already answered this on Facebook.
Same answer here, with a bit more detail. Raised Catholic all the way to confirmation. Spent many hours attending church services and was a true believer.
After all the BS with the priests and the little boys and then it came out that the church knew about it and did nothing but relocate those BASTARDS.... I have been for many years now what I call a "Recovering Catholic"

More than likely I would have been shot for my answer of " I just don't know"
 
I tell ya something that surprises me, the lack of people who are prepared to go on the offensive. If people stuck together, the shooter could have been overwhelmed. One guy charged him despite the odds. If others had followed, the shooter stupid face turd licker could have been taken down by an unarmed mob. Maybe some would have died anyway or at least have been wounded, but certainly more could have saved. As has been mentioned above, they're taught otherwise. To comply. To rules and attackers alike. It doesn't help when they're elected officials say things like attackers use guns because civilians have guns but if civilians put their guns down then attackers would too.

I'd hope that if ever in that situation myself, we collectively would try to over take the attacker before it got to the point that people are lined up facing a wall. As a group, people need to move decisively and without hesitation. It's not a staring contest.
 
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Rossignol said:
I tell ya something that surprises me, the lack of people who are prepared to go on the offensive. If people stuck together, the shooter could have been overwhelmed.
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Sadly, this is a common theme with just about ALL of these mass shootings. Like beta sheep running from the slaughter... :(

I don't how I would react, fight or flight, because adrenaline is a powerful drug. Mentally, I've resolved to go on the offensive, but who knows what my body would do... o_O Training helps to build "muscle memory" and I am not one to flinch or scream :rolleyes: at loud noises. If I can get within arm's length, the shooter will be a goner... :cool:

I talk about this stuff with my kids, mainly to counteract what they hear in school and see on their phones (internet). The schools around here are amazingly unprotected. They know how to fight enough that they are not easy prey for a bully and that has not been an issue. They know enough about boxing, take-downs and "soft" points that I think they would do OK in a crisis. Now if only they would develop a better situational awareness like using ALL the senses to keep space around them. This old man can still sneak up and startle them... ;)

It reminds me the terrorists have won every time they lock down a school or block off an intersection because of a "suspicious package" that NEVER turns out to be anything! :mad:
 
OhioArcher said:
I do know one thing. In that situation, at that given time, I would have been armed (without fear of prosecution) and would have be able to at least defend myself. It's crazy that more were not. But given the anti-gun sentiment driven into students by today's colleges it is not surprising.
Click to expand...
Those well-meaning, but ultimately misguided people, students, school admins, etc. have no idea that the propaganda they bought hook, line, and sinker, supposed to bring about some violence-free utopia is precisely why they are targeted. To me they are victims, not so much of a crazy (trouble will find you one day, one way, no matter what), but of the brainwashing they mostly willingly embraced.
Rossignol said:
I tell ya something that surprises me, the lack of people who are prepared to go on the offensive. If people stuck together, the shooter could have been overwhelmed. One guy charged him despite the odds. If others had followed, the shooter stupid face turd licker could have been taken down by an unarmed mob. Maybe some would have died anyway or at least have been wounded, but certainly more could have saved. As has been mentioned above, they're taught otherwise. To comply. To rules and attackers alike. It doesn't help when they're elected officials say things like attackers use guns because civilians have guns but if civilians put they're guns down then attackers would too.

I'd hope that if ever in that situation myself, we collectively would try to over take the attacker before it got to the point that people are lined up facing a wall. As a group, people need to move decisively and without hesitation. It's not a staring contest.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what disturbed people on a power trip and with a blood lust are counting on. Our lovely liberal politicians have paved the way for them by defanging the population and convincing everyone that lying down was the best course of action ("let the professionals handle it"). All mass shootings have something in common: the victims may have been unarmed, but they had numbers and they didn't even use that. With kids, it's understandable. Adults? Not really. Flight 93, anyone? Belgian train attack?
 
The numbers game isn't a simple solution. We had an incident about a 2 decades back on the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) where an immigrant got on a train and started killing people in the car with a gun. Some people tried to rush him but got shot. Eventually he had to reload and people jumped on him.

Sad thing is.... 2 conductors on the train had carry permits but because the train stopped in NYC they could not carry (NYC has it's own rules outside of the state of NY).

In the end we got an anti-gun legislator to the House of Representatives who used her husband's death to launch her political career.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Rail_Road_massacre
 
Running unarmed towards a crazy with a gun or a blade will never be a good option, but at least it is one. The good guy who got shot several times (5?) in Oregon will survive and be fine, I understand, which says a lot about how well handgun wounds can be treated nowadays. A rifle or a machete would be a much taller order. It's still a huge gamble, that's for sure, but it beats waiting for the shot to the head or the back.
That's why I think people should carry, by the way, not necessarily to always shoot back, but to at least have that option.
 
Been watching all this with some interest and normally as the core issues are part of another countries domestic policies I would refrain, other than expressing my deepest condolences to those affected. However this time it has also affected one of ours and therefore I feel that I can comment. People react in all sorts of different ways, from what we have been told the Kiwi lad had a mate shot beside him so must have been at or very near the point of the problem, his action was to get out of dodge as fast as he could and then to txt his coach to warn team mates to stay clear, maybe this saved some, who knows. History shows us, on so many unfortunate occasions that underwhelming force can and will control overwhelming numbers and that we all have a tendency to just "do as we are told".
Background first, I currently have 8 guns and a more than adequate stock of ammo, as a country, last time I heard it was something around 4 guns per person, man, woman and child average for the entire country. Most days I hear gunshots from at least two different ranges or shooting sites. However they are almost all 'long guns' as by law we do not have public access to pistols. The police do not carry side arms as standard although they do have access if required. Any mention of HD when applying for firearms permit is an automatic no.

The effect, is it safe to walk the streets? Sure.
Do I feel unsafe or concerned? No.
I should add that I am now 60+ so have a fair sized sample to take data from.

Myself, I have always felt that 'to have to put fist to face, is to have failed'. Having said that I have spent ten + years in the correctional services as a warden, outside that I have had situations where I have disarmed and defused situations involving knives, softball bats, crowbars, slashers and cane knives, all without harm to either party, granted I do take great care when I suspect drugs might be involved.

Point of all this,
One: Guys, you have a problem, one that might be way to far out of control to be easy to solve, however unless you all find a way then I can see 'mutually assured self destruction' at some stage.
Two: It's them that is the problem not me attitude is bull shit, everyone has to buy in.
Three: It is most likely that most of you will publicly disagree or not like what I have said or feel I live in some sort of idealistic world and it would not work for you, fair enough but how about putting your hand up if you secretly agree.
Four: The best, most used excuse for excusing bully behavior or trying to control another is to invoke some sort of divine right, we have done it for thousands of years and will most likely continue for some time.
Five: As a world we need to get our act together and sooner rather than later, will it be easy? No way, can it happen? It has to, how can it happen? One step at a time.
Six: Yes it involves all of us, not just the other radicalized, rag head loony but all of us.
Seven: It is not gun control or anything like that, the problems are much deeper than that, much more fundamental.

Big question is "Who will blink first?"

Sorry if this offends, feels like I have hijacked this thread or in any way upset any of you, but this is how I see it, good luck, we all need it. Rant over.
 
Huntallyeardownhere said:
Sorry if this offends, feels like I have hijacked this thread or in any way upset any of you, but this is how I see it, good luck, we all need it. Rant over.
Click to expand...
You probably will cause some reactions, but so what? I see some of your points and still somewhat disagree with you, but it's not from a place of ignorance or fanaticism (patriotic, religious or gun-related) in my case, I can assure you. Having lived in Europe and worked in private security there, I can tell you that the rest of the world has no business judging Americans. Where I could get away, unarmed and untrained, with simply informing suspects that they had to follow me when making an arrest (!), here I have faced instant and violent fights almost every single time. I currently work armed, wear body armor and am probably more trained and alert than the average police officer in my old country (I was in the reserves there, nothing like here, by the way, so I have an idea). Some will label this paranoia, but I've been stabbed in the face and had a gun barrel stuck under my jaw so I know what I'm facing.
My point is that we don't love guns because we are nuts - you just don't take a fist and a stern voice to a gun fight. A Brit once approached me as I was standing post in a jewelry store, armed and wearing a couple of extra mags (like everyone else here) and asked, "Isn't this a little... excessive?" I simply replied that LA was the nation's capital for armed robberies, and this only seemed to puzzled the man further, but what did I care? He just couldn't get it when his country's police officers sometimes go unarmed.

We could debate endlessly the root causes of why we need guns. I'll just say that our level of personal freedom causes many to take things too far, which they couldn't in other societies, but liberalism is the main and real culprit as I see it. This is pointless and academic, however. The fact is, pragmatically: whoever is to blame, what am I to do to stay safe (and protect others - I'm a bodyguard) in that environment? And my response is: armed, prepared and willing. That's all we're talking about here.

So I understand that some of what we say, or how we say it, can shock people overseas. But you have to accept that it's another culture and other circumstances entirely. Banning guns is not only infeasible, it would be wrong as it would only facilitate an enslavement that is already in progress. So if there are guns, and whack jobs with guns... the solution is not to turn the other cheek or hope for the best, but to prepare for war. Some of the bravado you read on this forum and maybe others comes with the territory when men condition themselves to standing up to evil with violence. I'm probably less gung-ho than some here, but I've been here long enough to know not to judge too harshly men who are on my side of the fight.

That self-assured mutual destruction you mentioned will never occur, by the way. The states where guns are prevalent and permits readily available have the lowest crime rates! An armed society is a polite society. Criminals love helpless victims who don't fight back - they are mostly lazy and cowardly. Sure, a police state also buys you some security, but we do love our freedom here so we do what we have to do to protect it without expecting too much help from any government.

Finally, a brave small number can overcome overwhelming opposition. The crazies we're talking about pick children and unarmed victims - they are inept cowards. So taking them on is not the same as bum-rushing a SWAT team. Now I'm not saying that every case is as simple as 'grab a gun and start shooting' or 'just jump on the bastard', not at all. But we Americans tend... not to do as told, in case you didn't know! :D
 
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Twelve Pump said:
You probably will cause some reactions, but so what? I see some of your points and still somewhat disagree with you, but it's not from a place of ignorance or fanaticism (patriotic, religious or gun-related) in my case, I can assure you. Having lived in Europe and worked in private security there, I can tell you that the rest of the world has no business judging Americans. Where I could get away, unarmed and untrained, with simply informing suspects that they had to follow me when making an arrest (!), here I have faced instant and violent fights almost every single time. I currently work armed, wear body armor and am probably more trained and alert than the average police officer in my old country (I was in the reserves there, nothing like here, by the way, so I have an idea). Some will label this paranoia, but I've been stabbed in the face and had a gun barrel stuck under my jaw si I know what I'm facing.
My point is that we don't love guns because we are nuts - you just don't take a fist and a stern voice to a gun fight. A Brit once approached me as I was standing post in a jewelry store, armed and wearing a couple of extra mags (like everyone else here) and asked, "Isn't this a little... excessive?" I simply replied that LA was the nation's capital for armed robberies, and this only seemed to puzzled the man further, but what did I care? He just couldn't get it when his country's police officers sometimes go unarmed.

We could debate endlessly the root causes of why we need guns. I'll just say that our level of personal freedom causes many to take things too far, which they couldn't in other societies, but liberalism is the main and real culprit as I see it. This is pointless and academic, however. The fact is, pragmatically: whoever is to blame, what am I to do to stay safe (and protect others - I'm a bodyguard) in that environment? And my response is: armed, prepared and willing. That's all we're talking about here.

So I understand that some of what we say, or how we say it, can shock people overseas. But you have to accept that it's another culture and other circumstances entirely. Banning guns is not only infeasible, it would be wrong as it would only facilitate an enslavement that is already in progress. So if there are guns, and whack jobs with guns... the solution is not to turn the other cheek or hope for the best, but to prepare for war. Some of the bravado you read on this forum and maybe others comes with the territory when men condition themselves to standing up to evil with violence. I'm probably less gung-ho than some here, but I've been here long enough to know not to judge too harshly men who are on my side of the fight.

That self-assured mutual destruction you mentioned will never occur, by the way. The states where guns are prevalent and permits readily available have the lowest crime rates! An armed society is a polite society. Criminals love helpless victims who don't fight back - they are mostly lazy and cowardly. Sure, a police state also buys you some security, but we do love our freedom here so we do what we have to do to protect it without expecting too much help from any government.

Finally, a brave small number can overcome overwhelming opposition. The crazies we're talking about pick children and unarmed victims - they are inept cowards. So taking them on is not the same as bum-rushing a SWAT team. Now I'm not saying that every case is as simple as 'grab a gun and start shooting' or 'just jump on the bastard', not at all. But we Americans tend... not to do as told, in case you didn't know! :D
Click to expand...

That's pretty much sums it up.

I will add that many countries do not believe in the concept of self defense. I remember reading where a home intruder was stopped in the UK by the home owner because the home owner used a toy gun to make the intruder submit. When the police arrived the home owner was also arrested... for placing the man's life in danger because he believed the toy gun was real.

https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.c...approach-to-crime-shoot-a-burglar-go-to-jail/

To further expand on Twelve pump's mutual destruction response.... we have the MOST private arms in the know world. Over 300 million guns. Yet our overall violent crime rate has literally dropped the past 30 years including the latest FBI reports for 2013:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...olent-crime-topic-page/violentcrimemain_final

What other nation can bolster that statistic?
UK - nope
Australia - nope
 
IMHO...@Huntallyeardownhere has very valid points. Primarily...
Huntallyeardownhere said:
Two: It's them that is the problem not me attitude is bull shit, everyone has to buy in.

Five: As a world we need to get our act together and sooner rather than later, will it be easy? No way, can it happen? It has to, how can it happen? One step at a time.

Six: Yes it involves all of us, not just the other radicalized, rag head loony but all of us.

Seven: It is not gun control or anything like that, the problems are much deeper than that, much more fundamental.

Big question is "Who will blink first?"
Click to expand...
While I can wholeheartedly agree with these ideals...I don't believe it will ever happen. I think most of us would rather live in peace, minding our own business and tend to our own lives and families.

The trouble is there is a large segment of this ol' worlds population that is willing to follow maniacal doctrine unto their own destruction. This disturbs me deeply. And getting buy in from them...I just don't ever see that happening.

We also have fostered here in the free nations, a generation or two of narcississtic, slothful and self-entitled people. My belief is that our collective mental health is only declining in this technology age of solitude. I also think we've got more information than anyone of us can ever process and actually make sense of. More information I think than we were ever meant to cope with.

I think the quagmire today is deep, very deep indeed.
 
In a nutshell: si vis pacem, para bellum. :D I truly believe that Americans are a mostly peaceful and friendly bunch. They just tend to be more tested and therefore prepared than much of the (western) world. As Walter Monkey hinted to, our Constitution and how this country was founded also runs deep in our blood. Add to all this that we also have a high standard of living here and the rest of the world can be both envious and resentful. This makes us targets both stateside and abroad. So... walk softly and carry a big stick, you know?
 
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