• Mossberg Owners is in the process of upgrading the software. Please bear with us while we transition to the new look and new upgraded software.

Boy did this open my eyes....

nitesite

Average Guy
Moderator
"Philanthropist"
My department just bought some really expensive .223/5.56mm duty ammo recently because it was available and we needed a significant quantity (more than just a few hundred rounds) of "duty ammo".

We got Federal T223A Tactical TRU 55-gr Jacketed Soft Point in boxes of 20. I wasn't brought into this decision meeting, unfortunately. Our state bid contract for bonded ammo is on a 16-month wait list, so this was purchased "spur of the moment" at a gun show and it looked good on initial examination.

Well, after studying it for a few minutes I found that ATK LE/Federal T223A Tactical TRU doesn't perform worth spit thru auto glass:



Yep, you are seeing it correctly; the 55-gr TRU SP gets barely 2" of penetration with ZERO expansion and ZERO retained weight after striking glass.

So::: I just ordered fifty dollars worth of Barnes M/LE solid copper 62-gr BTHP for my own gun and I'll push them with the published Varget charge..
 

mingaa

Raconteur
Yow! How many just roll along thinking that the department has things well researched and under control?!? The fps on the round are not earth shaking either.

Once the glass is gone - shot #2 will be more effective but who wants to think like that??!
 

dieselmudder

.30-06
Elite Member
"Philanthropist"
good to see someone taking the initiative to do their own research, and be proactive enough to do something about it. and thank you for sharing the information, something to add to the "steer clear" list
 

nitesite

Average Guy
Moderator
"Philanthropist"
I think the low velocity is because of the 14.5" 1:7 barrel on the test gun.

And as I said, what we WANT is on a long backorder and we're taking what we can get thru procurement methods not normally used. We got a lot of really good 55-gr FMJ with crimped and sealed primers. These 500 rounds of T223A were the only soft point ammo at the gun show and we had no time to make a weighted decision. So I'm not critical of the decision to purchase what we could get at that moment. In other penetration tests it does somewhat better than auto glass but I don't think I'll use it beyond training and qualification.
 

OhioArcher

Where's da fishes?
Supporter
"Philanthropist"
Sad commentary that a PD needs to go to a local gunshow to procure ammo...

Next thing you know they will have to go to Piggly Wiggly to buy cheap donuts...:eek: j/k nitesite...
 

John A.

Unconstitutional laws are not laws.
Staff member
Administrator
Global Moderator
@nitesite I may not have a lot to offer, but one thing I have learned about velocity through a shorter than 16 inch barrel, .223/5.56 velocity does not drop off nearly as much as many people think if 16 inches is your starting point.

One good choice for your Dept. may be Hornady Tap or Hornady Tap Barrier.

The Barrier ammo performs really well for windshields and light (metal door) and barricade and such. A lot of nuclear power plants and high security area's use the barriers just because of how well it does against vehicles and such.

And to be honest, I'm pretty sure that Hornady won't just sell the barriers to just anyone. Much like their blue hull 12 gauge low recoil double oughts.
 

nitesite

Average Guy
Moderator
"Philanthropist"
Thanks John, for the info.

And yeah, although it seems a "sad commentary" (to quote OhioArcher) that there are long waits for PDs everywhere to get ammo, it is no different than other citizens trying to get ammo or components.

Gulf States Distributors is the state bid contract ammo distributor for my part of the country, and their web site has the following caution:

"Firearms Instructors- Please read the below Important Information About Ammunition Orders: DELIVERY As you probably know by now delivery of ammunition orders is taking longer than in the past. Some orders can take up to 12 months for delivery. This is an industry wide problem and not just limited to our suppliers. We encourage you to plan ahead. "

They even post links to Gunbroker.com on their web page so see, gun shows aren't all that much of a stretch now are they? :)
 

OhioArcher

Where's da fishes?
Supporter
"Philanthropist"
My "sad commentary" wasn't directed at any one department but an blanket statement for all PDs in this predicament. I've heard of departments going out and asking their citizens for ammo donations.

So, if organizations like the PDs are not getting their allotment of ammo, and citizens are not getting theirs, where the hell is it all going? Yeah, there was a huge ammo grab but for the most parts I don't see the lines anymore. Yet ammo has not "made a comeback" despite manufacturer's claims they are making more than before. Very perplexing...
 

John A.

Unconstitutional laws are not laws.
Staff member
Administrator
Global Moderator
^ This

I am seeing some "more" ammo, but still a lot left to be desired.

Especially for certain calibers [cough 22 cough]
 

zagmp03

.270 WIN
Is there a reason for such desperation that it couldn't be found online? I just found over 1K each of .223 in stock that I would think would be acceptable for duty ammo - Winchester Ranger 55gr PSP, Hornady 60 Urban TAP, Hornady 55gr Urban TAP, Hornady 62gr Barrier - all under $16/20. Not cheap, but at least it outperforms the spitwads above.
 

nitesite

Average Guy
Moderator
"Philanthropist"
The back story is that the head of a neighboring county's drug task force was at the gun show, saw some Federal LE ammo and called my chief to see if he wanted any. Without kn0wing much about it he said sure, with the promise to pay for it when they split the 1,000-rd case later.

It really wasn't desparation, it was just a spontaneous decision based on a phone call by a comrade.

This isn't the only ammo we, as a department, have on hand so things are not as dire as I may have led you to believe. We're OK.

Just a bit of our ammo isn't OK for my needs against auto glass. This stuff would be fine for lots of other scenarios!!!
 

mingaa

Raconteur
The back story is that the head of a neighboring county's drug task force was at the gun show, saw some Federal LE ammo and called my chief to see if he wanted any. Without kn0wing much about it he said sure, with the promise to pay for it when they split the 1,000-rd case later.

It really wasn't desparation, it was just a spontaneous decision based on a phone call by a comrade.

This isn't the only ammo we, as a department, have on hand so things are not as dire as I may have led you to believe. We're OK.

Just a bit of our ammo isn't OK for my needs against auto glass. This stuff would be fine for lots of other scenarios!!!
Understood and it is not useless - training, qualifying etc. - as long as all in the position to buy know what the field use goal is, eh?!
 

zagmp03

.270 WIN
Nitesite, as long as you know what's in the mag when the shit gets hot, I guess you are ok then...still seems like a silly way to do acquisitions, seeing as how people might depend on that ammo for more than just a qual score...

Glad to see you guys have other, hopefully more sane processes in place.
 

GunnyGene

Racist old man
BANNED
My department just bought some really expensive .223/5.56mm duty ammo recently because it was available and we needed a significant quantity (more than just a few hundred rounds) of "duty ammo".

We got Federal T223A Tactical TRU 55-gr Jacketed Soft Point in boxes of 20. I wasn't brought into this decision meeting, unfortunately. Our state bid contract for bonded ammo is on a 16-month wait list, so this was purchased "spur of the moment" at a gun show and it looked good on initial examination.

Well, after studying it for a few minutes I found that ATK LE/Federal T223A Tactical TRU doesn't perform worth spit thru auto glass:



Yep, you are seeing it correctly; the 55-gr TRU SP gets barely 2" of penetration with ZERO expansion and ZERO retained weight after striking glass.

So::: I just ordered fifty dollars worth of Barnes M/LE solid copper 62-gr BTHP for my own gun and I'll push them with the published Varget charge..

Take a look at the Underwood .223. Might suit you're needs. They have several different bullet types in stock. http://www.underwoodammo.com/223remington.aspx . FMJ, Hornady, etc.
 

nitesite

Average Guy
Moderator
"Philanthropist"
Update: I got in my Barnes 62-gr all-copper TSX bullets. They really show a lot of promise.

And once again, please don't think that we're just a bunch of stupid southern rednecks who don't know how to buy ammo. The "disappointing" Federal TRU ammo acquisition was one case of 1,000 rounds bought by a guy who was off-duty and offered to split the case with my Chief, who bought half a case for our department to try. It was NOT the way we have ever put ammo into our arms room ever before.

Okay?

Here's how well the Barnes held together when I informally tested it this morning. Thru my carbine length gun I shot a <0.78" group with the A2 front/GG&G BUIS rear iron sights at 50-yards with a 14.5" sight radius so accuracy is just fine. And the retained weight was 61.9 grains.







So the Barnes bullet is starting to show a lot of promise.

I still want to try to get a sufficient quantity of LE223T3 with the 62-gr Bonded Bear Claw bullet but that stuff is rare and incredibly expensive! http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...-bonded-62gr-sp-ammo/cName/223-556-soft-point
 

LAZY EYED SNIPER

Overwatch
Global Moderator
Supporter
"Philanthropist"
Nice little mushroom there nite!

A good friend of mine hunts with solid copper projectiles and now won't use anything else. He says every animal he's taken with a solid copper round has dropped where it stood...
 

zagmp03

.270 WIN
No offense meant Nitesite. It is just very foreign to me that a department could spend money in that way, especially to test ammo. I made no assumptions about your department. I come from the acquisitions process from hell (the DoD), so that's probably why it seems so weird to me.

On another note, that is an impressive looking round, both in accuracy and retention.
 
Top