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Obama: My work here is done, (POLITICAL DEBATE!)

ladytech777

.270 WIN
Sorry Guys- I can not agree with this! Lets go back and see how this was all started- WITH a Republican Administration. We started with a 3 TRILLION SURPLUS when "Dubya" came to office.
We started a war and BORROWED the money to finance it. Bush then gives out tax breaks to the rich and tells the people we overpaid on our taxes. The he removes all banking controls to "give everyone a house that wants one"! (Nevermind whether or not they can actually afford it) All this unsecured debt is then tied in with some "reasonable" debt paper and sold all over the world. When all these loans become "payable" guess what- there is no money behind it- it's all paper!
SO- the U.S. Gov't jumps in the "save" the economy and bails out the banks. NOT ONE of these bankers that made ALL the decisions to write these loans was ever held accountable! To top it off- the republicans administration now decides there will be "no new taxes" to increase revenue flow to pay the debts! They just hand the bill to the American public!!! After the election and the Republicans loose control it becomes a new presidents "problem". The Republicans were on a spending spree for 10 yrs and all they can do in blame the guy who inherited the problem for not being able to fix it in 3 yrs. Now they want to continue the process, by not raising taxes on those who can easily afford it, but by stripping the rights of Labor to negotiate with Management (gov't or corporate)!
Yes we need to reduce spending but we also need to increase revenues. When a Guy like Warren Buffet and many of the Financial Elite feels they are not paying enough taxes to service the debt
there is a REAL PROBLEM with the rhetoric of the Republican party!
To add insult to injury the party is becoming way too evangelical, to prey on emotions. What happened to the separation of chuch and state? Are we now going to blame everyone except the "Right Wing Christian Coalition" for the country's problems? To "justify" bigotry with religion is unconscionable.
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

ladytech777 said:
Sorry Guys- I can not agree with this! Lets go back and see how this was all started- WITH a Republican Administration. We started with a 3 TRILLION SURPLUS when "Dubya" came to office.
We started a war and BORROWED the money to finance it. Bush then gives out tax breaks to the rich and tells the people we overpaid on our taxes. The he removes all banking controls to "give everyone a house that wants one"! (Nevermind whether or not they can actually afford it) All this unsecured debt is then tied in with some "reasonable" debt paper and sold all over the world. When all these loans become "payable" guess what- there is no money behind it- it's all paper!
SO- the U.S. Gov't jumps in the "save" the economy and bails out the banks. NOT ONE of these bankers that made ALL the decisions to write these loans was ever held accountable! To top it off- the republicans administration now decides there will be "no new taxes" to increase revenue flow to pay the debts! They just hand the bill to the American public!!! After the election and the Republicans loose control it becomes a new presidents "problem". The Republicans were on a spending spree for 10 yrs and all they can do in blame the guy who inherited the problem for not being able to fix it in 3 yrs. Now they want to continue the process, by not raising taxes on those who can easily afford it, but by stripping the rights of Labor to negotiate with Management (gov't or corporate)!
Yes we need to reduce spending but we also need to increase revenues. When a Guy like Warren Buffet and many of the Financial Elite feels they are not paying enough taxes to service the debt
there is a REAL PROBLEM with the rhetoric of the Republican party!
To add insult to injury the party is becoming way too evangelical, to prey on emotions. What happened to the separation of chuch and state? Are we now going to blame everyone except the "Right Wing Christian Coalition" for the country's problems? To "justify" bigotry with religion is unconscionable.

In reply to your points above:

1. In 2001, when President Bush took office, the U.S. did enjoy a $236 Billion budget surplus, according to the Congressional Budget Office. When Bush left office, the deficit was at $1.2 Trillion according to the CBO and was estimated to be at $3.1 Trillion by 2019. Any guesses as to the current CBO estimate for the next decade?

The CBO, based on the Obama Administration's 2012 budget, estimates the 2021 budget deficit to be $20.8 Trillion. So, under the Obama Administration, we've nearly tripled the estimated ten-year deficit. Bush's fault? Maybe partially but certainly not materially.

2. We did not start a war. We defended ourselves against an enemy that attacked us on our own soil. We did incur a budget deficit to support the war. Was there a better alternative? It doesn't seem so. The Democrats, with virtually uncontested power in the first two years of the Obama Administration, made no significant changes to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

3. Bailing out the banks ... ah, yes, the first round of TARP came out during the last days of the Bush Administration. Guess what - the second and third rounds of TARP came out under the Obama Administration. Guess what else - the first round of TARP is all but paid back. Not so much with the second and third rounds.

4. The Republican's "ten year spending spree" created jobs and defended our country. Sure, it left the new president with a small deficit to deal with. However, the "Bush Tax Cuts" were set to expire in 2010. There's a bit of the revenue generation you're looking for. Did the Democrats allow them to expire? Nope. They were extended.

5. Warren Buffet is giving away all of his money. Why should he care if it goes to taxes or directly to charities?

6. Yes, we need to increase revenues. According to the New York Times, the Democrats' taxation plan would have generated an additional $70 Billion a year in revenue. That's barely even a rounding error in terms of the deficit. Again, we need more revenue, but the real problem is runaway spending. You can't earn your way out of a hole that exceeds 90% of your GDP. The real problem with the Democrats' rhetoric is that it punishes the productive members of society because there are members of society deemed to be "suffering".

7. Finally, the Republicans are playing on people's emotion? Seriously? Oh, noes!

There's a reason that liberals are often referred to as "bleeding hearts". It's because almost their entire platform is emotion-based, lacking a foundation in logic and reality. Your attempt to lump a mass of people together as "Right Wing Christian Coalition" and paint them with an evil broad brush stroke is no better than those who suggest that every Muslim is a terrorist or every non-white is a criminal.

Many of us so-called "Right Wing Christians" are donating time and money on a regular basis to those who need it. I have a number of liberal friends and acquaintences. Almost none of them volunteer their time to help those who need it and only a few of them donate any real money - in terms of a percentage of their income - to help people in need. Personally, I'd rather give my money directly to an entity that provides support to those who need it than give it to the government to waste. Maybe paying taxes "to help the less fortunate" assuages some of the guilt of liberals who don't otherwise donate time or money. Personally, I carry no such guilt so I can't understand it.
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

Bush left office with 1.2 Trillion?? Think that’s all the 2 wars cost over 8 yrs?
I don’t know where your figures are from but there is a lot missing.
I don’t know how the “borrowing “ was structured but you can be sure the interest compounds. Especially when you are borrowing to service the debt.

The entire TARP deal was set in place by congress, during the last days of the Bush administration- Obama had nothing to do with it and could not stop it without congressional approval- which was not going to happen. Congress has no vested interest in fixing the budget. They have their own protected retirement,medical,and salary that is not part of any of the so called entitlements.

I did not mean we “started” the war but there was no need to go in whole hog and make it a full blown war. ( I worked for American Airlines when we were attacked)

The first round of TARP was paid back quickly so the Corporate infrastructure could resume contol of their companies after labor contracts were disposed of by the bankruptcies. The 2nd and 3rd round of TARP is being hoarded by banks to increase their solvency as demanded by the Fed.

Sure “the 10yr spending spree” created jobs. The only problem is the average person needed 3 of those jobs to make a living. We went from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. Were the tax cuts “allowed” to expire- not on your life- by congress. The president had no control over it.

As to some of our extremely wealthy- no one is giving away all their money. Many of them realize only by giving back can they keep their lifestyle.

Earning your way out of the hole we created is impossible as the debt service alone is too expensive. Yes- I’ve read Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged).
All the Republicans have done so far is Blame. No one has come forward to FIX the problems. The congressional commisions have told both parties what it will take- but no one is LISTENING!

As far as the rest of the comments- “Bleeding Hearts” and the “Right wing Conservatives” have been at odds with each other since the beginning of recorded history. Extremism in any form is counter-productive. That is what I meant. Separate the Church and State. Get the Government out of our lives! Support it yes- but don’t tell me how to live. I don’t need the Bible,Quran or any other propaganda to know the difference of right and wrong. A Libertarian philosphy works better for me- and we are all entitled to our opinion.
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

"The he removes all banking controls to "give everyone a house that wants one"! (Nevermind whether or not they can actually afford it)"

this would be the Community Reinvest Act signed into law by President Clinton

now all this being said are the Republicans lilly white? not no but HELL NO!!!! when Pres Obama says Washington is broken he is right but not for the reason he gives when he says nothing will get done I say GOOD everyday they dont do anything is day they dont spend money we dont have

Washington is broken becuase career politicians make Washington Home and let special interests control them instead of the people who elect them....
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

.40-.45 said:
"The he removes all banking controls to "give everyone a house that wants one"! (Nevermind whether or not they can actually afford it)"

this would be the Community Reinvest Act signed into law by President Clinton

now all this being said are the Republicans lilly white? not no but HELL NO!!!! when Pres Obama says Washington is broken he is right but not for the reason he gives when he says nothing will get done I say GOOD everyday they dont do anything is day they dont spend money we dont have

Washington is broken becuase career politicians make Washington Home and let special interests control them instead of the people who elect them....
The Community Reinvestment Act still had all the banking controls( and "red-lining areas)- Bush removed them and let the banks work without regulation and absolutely no oversight of "Mortgage Brokers".
Put Congress into the Social Security and Medicare systems and see how fast they act!
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

All the Republicans have done so far is Blame. No one has come forward to FIX the problems. The congressional commisions have told both parties what it will take- but no one is LISTENING!

this is simply not true
1)Paul Ryan presnted a budget you may not like but that doesnt mean it doesnt exsist

2)the house also passed Cut cap and Balance and it had 4 trillion in real cuts caped spending and then had a balanced buget amendment and what did BHO say nope wont sign it and his minion Reid step up and never even brought it to a vote in the senate. this would have preserved our AAA rating

Its the president who had a super majority in the house and the senate for the first two years of his presidency and he still blamed the Republicans, for his democrates voting with the republicans in a "Bipartisan" (I hate that word by the way) way to stop much of his agenda
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

Put Congress into the Social Security and Medicare systems and see how fast they act!

this I agree with 100%
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

the time for blaming Bush is over this is Obamas baby now and he needs to man up instead he is on a tax payer funded "its not my fault" tour
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

"this is simply not true
1)Paul Ryan presnted a budget you may not like but that doesnt mean it doesnt exsist

2)the house also passsed Cut cap and Balance and it had 4 trillion in real cuts caped spending and then had a balanced buget amendment and what did BHO say nope wont sign it and his minion Reid step up and never even brought it to a vote in the senate. this would have preserved our AAA rateing

Its the president who had a super majority in the house and the senate for the first two years of his presidency and he still blamed the Republicans, for his democrates voting with the republicans in a "Bipartisan" (I hate that word by the way) way to stop much of his agenda "


This is exactly what I mean- NO ONE IS LISTENING!!
Fixing this problem is going to be VERY PAINFUL to all of us.
As far as Blame goes- at this point-who cares? We need to just FIX THE PROBLEM!
There is talk by some analysts of "devaluing" the U.S. dollar- if that happens-
you better own a gun!!!
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

I'm not one for debating politics because, as ladytech777 said, no one can pull their heads out of their collective dark places long enough to figure out a way that helps the country vs. their financial contributes. But I thought I'd just throw this into the mix.

Being from a family where at least one person from each generation has served, and myself attempting to serve (was injured during basic), it's become very clear to me that one day within the next decade or so we are going to have some type of civic uprising in the US. It may not be an armed/violent uprising, but the response to it will defiantly be armed. National Guard and Reserve troops back home will be called up to 'defend our government' instead of defending our constitution, which to me is getting further and further from one another every day. When, not if, that happens soldiers and, more so, their commanding officers are going to have to make a decision on which to defend. I know for myself, I'm going to defend my country's citizens vs. some fat cat on the hill that decided our freedom of speech and the citizens getting fed up with this governments decisions (or lack there of) are making him uncomfortable.

Just this guys 2 pennies.
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

ladytech777 said:
Bush left office with 1.2 Trillion?? Think that’s all the 2 wars cost over 8 yrs?
I don’t know where your figures are from but there is a lot missing.

I cited my sources, e.g. the Congressional Budget Office. Where are yours?

As to some of our extremely wealthy- no one is giving away all their money. Many of them realize only by giving back can they keep their lifestyle.

Actually, Bill Gates has convinced a number of very wealthy individuals to "give away" at least half of their fortunes.

Link: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/ ... 5431.shtml

Sure “the 10yr spending spree” created jobs. The only problem is the average person needed 3 of those jobs to make a living.

Ah, yes, this tired old saying. Unfortunately, we have created a "standard of living" that defines poverty as "the state of one who lacks a usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions".

I grew up in a house that didn't have running water in the kitchen for several years. We provided most of our heat by burning wood. We were well below the poverty line. You know what? It didn't matter because we had self-worth, pride of ownership and accepted our personal responsibilities in life. We have a nation of poverty-stricken people all right. They are sticken by the poverty of of personal responsibility. They believe they have the right not to work but to have a smart phone, XBox, flat screen TV, three pets and 400 channels of cable TV ... all provided by the "evil" rich through taxation and redistribution.

I say screw that! I pulled myself up out of poverty by my own bootstraps. Anyone else who has the desire can do the same damn thing. Hell, I might even help you along your way. Whatever happened to American Pride? In its place we now have American Embarassment and American Apologists. Meanwhile, Obama fans the flames of hatred and divisiveness by pillorying the "private jet owners" and "hedge fund managers". Is there something that makes someone inherently evil simply because they make more money than you do?

Obama is an anti-colonialist with a deep-seated hatred of everyone and everything that, in his mind, represents the "colonials" who for so long have "enslaved the poor indigenous people of the world" - the United States is at the very top of that list (in his mind). He will do everything he can to bring the "colonials" low and raise up those who have been "subjected to their harsh rule". Rick Perry has it figured out.

Have you read his book, Dreams from My Father?
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

ladytech777 said:
...by not raising taxes on those who can easily afford it,...

This is the only point I'll argue. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need". One of the main tenants of Marxism.

Those who "can easily afford it" are already paying the bulk of the tax bill while 50% of Americans pay no taxes and of those, 1/2 are on welfare, have zero tax liabilty, and will still get money upon filing their taxes. That makes no real sense.

Those who "can easily afford it" are working the first 6 mos of the year (and more in some cases) for absolutely nothing except to pay taxes. 6 mos of work, and not a penny for themselves. Why, because govt has mandated it. So lets for a sec use yourself as an example (only because I want folks to put themselves in that position before making a statement about how wealthy should pay more). Lets pic a salary easily divided, say $50 grand a year. 50 large you work for, whether you went to school for a skill or professional degree, or you built your own business. Work six mos and give every penny to a random guy with no job. Why not? Hes less fortunate, doesnt have the skill set you do, its only fair cuz to him, you can easily afford it and theres no reason $25,000 isnt enough for one person to live on.

For those who "can easily afford it", they have done the work and put the time in, gone to school and worked long days and into the nights, but under penalty of law, they must give already 1/2 or more of their earnings to the govt. (right or left is irrelevant here) to be redistributed to those either less fortunate or far too lazy to be that productive themselves.

I was building my own business. I worked about 20 hours a day at first, and initially for little if no profit. I was shipping orders overnight because the product had to make it to a show, in some cases costing $80 to ship. It would be like a $40 order, but I covered it becuase I wanted my work in the public eye! Had my health not gone down hill, I'd still be doing it. If I were making a living at it, and I was getting very close, I'll be danged to be givin my money away. After material is paid for, expenses, etc, for the little left over to be further split... B#ll SH!t!!! No one else put the blood sweat and tears into it the way I did, my wife the tears maybe...

So whats fair? Whats a fair percentage folks should pay in taxes, how long should they work before they get to keep a paycheck for themselves? Are you going to go first? and put your money into the pool? Just wonderin why their tax liability should be higher than mine... or yours.

Personally I think Americans are far more able to manage their money than the govt. Our taxes are actually being used unlawfully as prescribed by our constitution. What are the core functions of govt? Our federal taxes are to pay for those things. Anything beyond that is covered in the 9th and 10th Ammendments and are state issues. The govt has far over stepped its boundaries which is why we are in crisis mode now. I'm not specifically blaming any one person or another for that. It really began during the great depression with the first social programs.

Did you know that European countries are now seeking measures to adopt balance budget ammendments themselves? What should that tell us? It says to me SOCIALISM DOESNT WORK! Socialism and Marxism creates a lazy, disinterested, unproductive class of people, further reducing the tax base and increasing the burden on the govt to maintain social programs. The govt doesnt need more taxes. There is already enough revenue to pay the govt's liabilities; The debt interest, Military and veterans benifits, medicare/medicade, and social security. All those things can be paid without "increasing revenue", which btw to me is a rather Orwellian way of saying "more taxes" its kind of "News Speak" esque, Ministry of Truth stuff.

Anyhow, gotta get kids fed... I'll check back in a bit.
 
Re: Obama: My work here is done.

Sn3aKyGuY said:
I'm not one for debating politics because, as ladytech777 said, no one can pull their heads out of their collective dark places long enough to figure out a way that helps the country vs. their financial contributes. But I thought I'd just throw this into the mix.

Being from a family where at least one person from each generation has served, and myself attempting to serve (was injured during basic), it's become very clear to me that one day within the next decade or so we are going to have some type of civic uprising in the US. It may not be an armed/violent uprising, but the response to it will defiantly be armed. National Guard and Reserve troops back home will be called up to 'defend our government' instead of defending our constitution, which to me is getting further and further from one another every day. When, not if, that happens soldiers and, more so, their commanding officers are going to have to make a decision on which to defend. I know for myself, I'm going to defend my country's citizens vs. some fat cat on the hill that decided our freedom of speech and the citizens getting fed up with this governments decisions (or lack there of) are making him uncomfortable.

Just this guys 2 pennies.
Sneaky's got it right.
This is getting way to political. I’m out of it. Obviously we have differences in philosophies. Those “that can easily afford” a tax increase know it will not make any difference in their lives or their future generations. Their accountants recommend this as it decreases their “tax burden” anyway.
It is all a matter of what you consider is “enough”. The Bill Gates and Warren Buffet’s of the world know what their “enough” is. They don’t work for “money”, they work for the pure joy of being productive in the society in which they live. They give away both wealth and the knowledge it took to get them where they are.


No one in Washington is paying attention to their constituency. They have no vested interest in “John Q Public". All they worry about is the next election and perceived interests. The “Patriot Act” was perceived safety for you and me- at what cost to civil liberties?? What’s next- shall we suspend “Posse Commitatus” to keep a broken system of ego battles running this country?

“Who is John Galt?"
 
Oh! Mud! The thing with giving away "half" of everything they own, is, get this:

because of the incredibly high "DEATH TAX"! 55%!!! They would rather give it away than have the govt take it! They arent just being philanthropists, theyre avoiding taxes! Which btw, isnt illegal. Tax evasion is, but not avoidance.
 
Just to chime in: Greed and the lack of investment in to our own country brought us into our current situation.
Once we become unable to sustain within our own environment, we die off. Sure we can adapt, but only if we have the means to continue to sustain. Greed encourages and challenges us to seek for more outside of our designed operable abilities and boundaries. And more often than not, once we reach outside of our boundaries, we are limited in the means of being sustainable and surviving. We must remember that we are animals and are dependent on the natural cycle of our environment. Many of us on this site are hunters and can find the correlation that I'm making here. Remember, we are all in this together.
Just my $.2/100
 
I dont feel like getting into a political debate because I like all of you...this and religion will ruin a relationship but I will throw in a simple take of my .02

No politician is worth a s**t and it doesnt matter red or blue they are all liars.

And the government was screwed up before Obama and it will be screwed up after he leaves....its going to have to come down to the people and since it isn’t 1776 and most people are worthless sheep that will probably never happen either.....so yeah pretty negative on my part....I love America, I am a patriot, the idea is still worth it but the government.....the big wigs behind the desks, I lost faith long ago
 
as long as they(politicians) keep us at each other they stay out of the cross hairs....the politics of class envy is what is killing this country
 
Oli, I feel very similarly, on all accounts. I'd rather discuss politics with people I dislike.

I think theyre all at fault, politicians that is. I know when something makes more sense. What sounds best to me would be for a much more limited govt. and leave me the heck alone!
 
It seems like every election- I look at the "winner" and it doesn't make any difference whether it is republican or democrat, and all I can think of "is this the best we can do?" Or , when the promises are broken and the special interests get their due- "we have the best gov't money can buy!" I just loved the Supreme Court decision to allow foreign interests to make contributions to our political candidates.
 
Rossignol said:
Oh! Mud! The thing with giving away "half" of everything they own, is, get this:

because of the incredibly high "DEATH TAX"! 55%!!! They would rather give it away than have the govt take it! They arent just being philanthropists, theyre avoiding taxes! Which btw, isnt illegal. Tax evasion is, but not avoidance.

Death Tax doesn't kick in until the estate is over $600,000. That is not considered rich by any means. Neither is a few million anymore. Now do you really think a Billionaire worries about "his taxes"?
Sure, they will reduce it as much as possible within the law, but they really don't worry about how they will pay their bills. That is what I meant by having "enough".
 
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