Syria - Message being sent

[John A.]

Hitler never used Sarin or any other gas during WWII. The Nazis had a quite a large stockpile, which was captured at the end of the war, but none was ever used.

With all due respect, the Nazi's did use poison gas.

Unless I misunderstood your post.

Auschwitz

 

[GunnyGene]

With all due respect, the Nazi's used poison gas.

Unless I misunderstood your post.

I think you may have. They did not use it on the battlefield. As it relates to the Holocaust, I agree that chemical agents of various lethality were used in some camps.

That said, the US and Britain were also quite prepared to use gas on the battlefield and in aerial bombardments. In fact, a large release of mustard occurred in Bari, Italy in 1943 when a US freighter was bombed and sunk in the harbor causing many casualties. That gas was intended for front line use.

Nobody has clean hands in the use of chemical agents, and for Kerry to imply that the US is squeaky clean about it is insulting.

From Wiki, among other sources (Also, see this account, especially as it concerns Churchill : http://rense.com/general83/gas.htm ):

On the night of December 2, 1943, German Ju 88 bombers attacked the port of Bari in Southern Italy, sinking several American ships– among them SS John Harvey, which was carrying mustard gas intended for use in retaliation by the Allies if German forces initiated gas warfare. The presence of the gas was highly classified, and authorities ashore had no knowledge of it– which increased the number of fatalities, since physicians, who had no idea that they were dealing with the effects of mustard gas, prescribed treatment improper for those suffering from exposure and immersion.

The whole affair was kept secret at the time and for many years after the war. According to the U.S. military account, "Sixty-nine deaths were attributed in whole or in part to the mustard gas, most of them American merchant seamen"[35] out of 628 mustard gas military casualties.[36] The large number of civilian casualties among the Italian population were not recorded. Part of the confusion and controversy derives from the fact that the German attack was highly destructive and lethal in itself, also apart from the accidental additional effects of the gas (it was nicknamed "The Little Pearl Harbor"), and attribution of the causes of death between the gas and other causes is far from easy.[37][38] Rick Atkinson, in his book The Day of Battle, describes the intelligence that prompted Allied leaders to deploy mustard gas to Italy. This included Italian intelligence that Adolf Hitler had threatened to use gas against Italy if the state changed sides, and prisoner of war interrogations suggesting that preparations were being made to use a "new, egregiously potent gas" if the war turned decisively against Germany. Atkinson concludes that "No commander in 1943 could be cavalier about a manifest threat by Germany to use gas."

 

[GunnyGene]

Add some more ships to the 'limited intervention' plan. Nimitz Strike Group (composition: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... tpac13.htm ) is moving towards the Red Sea, and also the Kearsarge Expeditionary Strike Group (composition: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /lhd-3.htm ). Getting pretty crowded over there.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Nimitz and other ships in its strike group are heading west toward the Red Sea to help support a limited U.S. strike on Syria, if needed, defense officials said on Sunday.

The Nimitz carrier strike group, which includes four destroyers and a cruiser, has no specific orders to move to the eastern Mediterranean at this point, but is moving west in the Arabian Sea so it can do so if asked. It was not immediately clear when the ships would enter the Red Sea, but they had not arrived by Sunday evening, said one official.

"It's about leveraging the assets to have them in place should the capabilities of the carrier strike group and the presence be needed," said the official.

President Barack Obama on Saturday delayed imminent cruise missile strikes by five destroyers off the coast of Syria, and sought approval from Congress, a move that effectively put any strike on hold for at least nine days.

The delay gives military planners more time to reassess which ships and other weapons will be kept in the region - and which may be swapped out - before the U.S. military launches what defense officials say is still intended to be a limited and narrowly targeted attack on Syria.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/idCABRE9800IT20130901

 

[carbinemike]

Looks like we are now sending another message:

British military chiefs are being ejected from US meetings about Syria in the first direct consequence of David Cameron’s refusal to join military action.
The role of senior British officers based at US Central Command in Tampa, Florida, has been downgraded because they cannot be trusted with high-level intelligence about a conflict with which they are no longer involved, military sources say.
About 30 British personnel have been working alongside the Americans and French at the headquarters, fine-tuning a list of targets and orchestrating military assets as part of war planning under way for weeks.

Obummer doesn't like the British anyway.

 

[GunnyGene]

Hearing on Syria starting in a couple minutes on CSPAN1 and Foxnews. Right now we're just jumping thru the hoops.

My opinion is we're going to do this. Why will we? Because we are between a rock and a hard place. The muzzies don't give a damn if the region blows up or the entire planet does. In fact, that's exactly what they want, and no matter whether we go into Syria or not, that's what is going to happen.

 

[John A.]

Not sure how truthful this is given the source, but here it is anyway.

Anderson Cooper and CNN have been caught staging fake news about Syria to justify military intervention.

The primary “witness” that the mainstream media is using as a source in Syria has been caught staging fake news segments. Recent video evidence proves that “Syria Danny”, the supposed activist who has been begging for military intervention on CNN, is really just a paid actor and a liar.

video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-DCZxsrt9I


From "friends of Syria" website.

 

[GunnyGene]

Not sure how truthful this is given the source, but here it is anyway.

Anderson Cooper and CNN have been caught staging fake news about Syria to justify military intervention.

The primary “witness” that the mainstream media is using as a source in Syria has been caught staging fake news segments. Recent video evidence proves that “Syria Danny”, the supposed activist who has been begging for military intervention on CNN, is really just a paid actor and a liar.

video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-DCZxsrt9I


From "friends of Syria" website.

"The first casualty of war is the truth."

I watched the entire Syria hearing today. Interesting, but a lot of equivocation by kerry, etc. For example, when Kerry was asked a direct question about 'boots on the ground', his forceful reply was; "There will not be any American boots on the ground with respect to this civil war."

So, don't be surprised if those Marines on the ships offshore hit the beach to "secure WMD" or some other reason ostensibly not related to the closely defined civil war.

Also, it was made plain that there will be more than one wave of Tomahawks. Gen Dempsey stated that they had planned for more than one wave if needed. I guarantee, more than one wave will be needed.

The way this works is you send in what you think will be enough 'hawks to do the job. Then you do a BDA with drones, manned A/C, Satellite, and people. If all targets are not completely destroyed, you send in a second wave. Rinse, repeat. In the meantime the other side is hitting back with all they've got. So more targets pop up, and we run out of Tomahawks, and send in manned a/c to redistribute the rubble a little more, potentially getting some shot down who must be rescued/retrieved. And eventually you send in ground troops or you just give up, which means the other guy wins.

FUBAR.

 

[John A.]

I believe that so much time has elapsed, very little will be in the same place it was 2 weeks ago which is going to make tomahawks useless if they hit empty buildings. Aside from the civilian casualties that will rule the airwaves for weeks on end of carrying lifeless bodies from the ruins in an attempt to further degrade public relations and to recruit more extremists.

I have also heard that syria has moved prisoners to some of the hardened locations to serve as human shields. Apparently, they paid a lot of attention to Saddam's tactics.

Furthermore, I wouldn't be very surprised to find out that Syria doesn't even have a lot of Iraqi gas. I always felt that was where they got moved just before the invasion. It was no secret that saddam had used them against the Kurds.

It would be far to easy for me to theorize what Obama should do, but I feel that he's messing up big time.

 

[OhioArcher]

Our so-called "top level senators" have agreed to let obamination have his way. Doesn't look like it is even going to the whole Senate. John Boner sided with obamination as well...I will work as hard as possible to see he doesn't get reelected (our representative)...

So off we go into another war...f***ing great...

 

[GunnyGene]

Our so-called "top level senators" have agreed to let obamination have his way. Doesn't look like it is even going to the whole Senate. John Boner sided with obamination as well...I will work as hard as possible to see he doesn't get reelected (our representative)...

So off we go into another war...f***ing great...

It's not a war. It's an In ter ven tion. Such a friendly sounding word isn't it? Much better than Police Action :roll: .

Note to self: Remember to hang a Cow sign on the deer this season.

 

[GunnyGene]

The Senate resolution on a US military strike on Syria was approved by a 10-7 vote. Following is a link to the text of the draft which will be going to the House for markup, then followed by a vote by the full Senate and House. Pretty squishy, imho.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interac ... esolution/

 

[carbinemike]

Sounds like weasel words to me:

President Obama:

“I didn’t set a red line, the world set a red line. My credibility is not on the line. The international community’s credibility is on the line. And America and Congress’ credibility is on the line because we give lip service to the notion that these international norms are important.”

 

[GunnyGene]

Sounds like weasel words to me:

President Obama:

“I didn’t set a red line, the world set a red line. My credibility is not on the line. The international community’s credibility is on the line. And America and Congress’ credibility is on the line because we give lip service to the notion that these international norms are important.”

This has got to be the absolute pinnacle of blame shifting. "Ain't my fault. It's the rest of the worlds fault." What an ass.

 

[OhioArcher]

The Senate resolution on a US military strike on Syria was approved by a 10-7 vote. Following is a link to the text of the draft which will be going to the House for markup, then followed by a vote by the full Senate and House. Pretty squishy, imho.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interac ... esolution/

Yes, especially since there is no conclusive evidence that Assad used the weapons and not the rebels (who appear to have gained access to them).

“I didn’t set a red line, the world set a red line. My credibility is not on the line. The international community’s credibility is on the line. And America and Congress’ credibility is on the line because we give lip service to the notion that these international norms are important.”

On Monday, US president Barack Obama gave the toughest indication yet that the United States will only tolerate a certain level of brutality in the Syrian civil war.

At the National Defense University, he said: "The use of chemical weapons is and would be totally unacceptable." Switching to speak directly to Syrian president Bashir al-Assad, he continued: "If you make the tragic mistake of using these weapons, there will be consequences and you will be held accountable."

Those are his words not the world's. He was the one who said "don't or else!". No back peddling now, Mr President....your mouth wrote a check your ass can't pass, didn't ya?

 

[MossLvR]

Well, I am sure many mouths have tried cashing cheques and ended up back peddling at sometime or the other. Be kinda devilish if he killed some just to prove a point....not sure how different from Assad that would be.

 

[OhioArcher]

Well, I am sure many mouths have tried cashing cheques and ended up back peddling at sometime or the other. Be kinda devilish if he killed some just to prove a point....not sure how different from Assad that would be.

Not much different but the repercussions would be 10 fold. We are supposed to be the ones who set the tone, the ones who stand above the atrocities that other countries do. Now we will be no better than them. There is no just cause...we are the Lone Ranger but for the wrong reasons---to appease our leader's big mouth and big ego. And that is not sufficient...

 

[OhioArcher]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/did-the-wh ... ck/5347542

There is a growing volume of new evidence from numerous sources in the Middle East — mostly affiliated with the Syrian opposition and its sponsors and supporters — which makes a very strong case, based on solid circumstantial evidence, that the August 21, 2013, chemical strike in the Damascus suburbs was indeed a pre-meditated provocation by the Syrian opposition.

The extent of US foreknowledge of this provocation needs further investigation because available data puts the “horror” of the Barack Obama White House in a different and disturbing light.

Meanwhile, additional data from Damascus about the actual chemical attack increases the doubts about Washington’s version of events. Immediately after the attack, three hospitals of Doctors Without Borders (MSF: médecins sans frontières) in the greater Damascus area treated more than 3,600 Syrians affected by the chemical attack, and 355 of them died. MSF performed tests on the vast majority of those treated.

MSF director of operations Bart Janssens summed up the findings: “MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack. However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events — characterized by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers — strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent.” Simply put, even after testing some 3,600 patients, MSF failed to confirm that sarin was the cause of the injuries. According to MSF, the cause could have been nerve agents like sarin, concentrated riot control gas, or even high-concentration pesticides. Moreover, opposition reports that there was distinct stench during the attack suggest that it could have come from the “kitchen sarin” used by jihadist groups (as distinct from the odorless military-type sarin) or improvised agents like pesticides.

Some of the evidence touted by the Obama White House is questionable at best.

 

[GunnyGene]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/did-the-white-house-help-plan-the-syrian-chemical-attack/5347542

There is a growing volume of new evidence from numerous sources in the Middle East — mostly affiliated with the Syrian opposition and its sponsors and supporters — which makes a very strong case, based on solid circumstantial evidence, that the August 21, 2013, chemical strike in the Damascus suburbs was indeed a pre-meditated provocation by the Syrian opposition.

The extent of US foreknowledge of this provocation needs further investigation because available data puts the “horror” of the Barack Obama White House in a different and disturbing light.

Meanwhile, additional data from Damascus about the actual chemical attack increases the doubts about Washington’s version of events. Immediately after the attack, three hospitals of Doctors Without Borders (MSF: médecins sans frontières) in the greater Damascus area treated more than 3,600 Syrians affected by the chemical attack, and 355 of them died. MSF performed tests on the vast majority of those treated.

MSF director of operations Bart Janssens summed up the findings: “MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack. However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events — characterized by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers — strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent.” Simply put, even after testing some 3,600 patients, MSF failed to confirm that sarin was the cause of the injuries. According to MSF, the cause could have been nerve agents like sarin, concentrated riot control gas, or even high-concentration pesticides. Moreover, opposition reports that there was distinct stench during the attack suggest that it could have come from the “kitchen sarin” used by jihadist groups (as distinct from the odorless military-type sarin) or improvised agents like pesticides.

Some of the evidence touted by the Obama White House is questionable at best.

To quote a former SecState: "What difference does it make now?"

Everybody wants a big war, or at least expects one. And I mean everybody. And it looks like we're going to have one in the M.E. Right next to Israel and a famous area called Megiddo. I'm not religious, but sometimes prophesies are self fulfilling.

 

[OhioArcher]

To quote a former SecState: "What difference does it make now?"

Everybody wants a big war, or at least expects one. And I mean everybody. And it looks like we're going to have one in the M.E. Right next to Israel and a famous area called Megiddo. I'm not religious, but sometimes prophesies are self fulfilling.

A helluva lot, Gunny, especially if you are on the receiving end of Obama's "shot across the bow". Our elected officials are gearing up to pass a "limited war" clause based on bad info and bullshit. You of all people should know what happens when "intelligence" is twisted to make it look we are in the right. If any of the info in that article is correct then we are more guilty than Assad. Putin is right, America is dumb. We play games with the world based on our own misconceptions that we are the knight on a white horse. Well, at least in this case, we may very well be one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And what happens when Obama's house of cards falls apart and we are left standing holding the bag?

 

[GunnyGene]

To quote a former SecState: "What difference does it make now?"

Everybody wants a big war, or at least expects one. And I mean everybody. And it looks like we're going to have one in the M.E. Right next to Israel and a famous area called Megiddo. I'm not religious, but sometimes prophesies are self fulfilling.

A helluva lot, Gunny, especially if you are on the receiving end of Obama's "shot across the bow". Our elected officials are gearing up to pass a "limited war" clause based on bad info and bullshit. You of all people should know what happens when "intelligence" is twisted to make it look we are in the right. If any of the info in that article is correct then we are more guilty than Assad. Putin is right, America is dumb. We play games with the world based on our own misconceptions that we are the knight on a white horse. Well, at least in this case, we may very well be one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. And what happens when Obama's house of cards falls apart and we are left standing holding the bag?

I was being sarcastic with the Hillary quote, but we don't have a smilie for that. But the intent of it was to point out that the objective is to have a big war. Nothing more, nothing less, and any excuse (fabricated or not) will do. Syria is only a sideshow, as was Iraq, Libya, Vietnam, and every other 2 bit conflict since WWII. But put enough sideshows together, and you have "The Greatest Show on Earth".

There's a poem that captures it well:

Sestina: Altaforte

LOQUITUR: En Bertrans de Born.
Dante Alighieri put this man in hell for that he was a stirrer
up of strife.
Eccovi!
Judge ye!
Have I dug him up again?
The scene is at his castle, Altaforte. "Papiols" is his jongleur.
"The Leopard," the device of Richard Coeur de Lion.

I

Damn it all! all this our South stinks of peace.
You whoreson dog, Papiols, come! Let's to music!
I have no life save when the swords clash.
But ah! when I see the standards gold, vair, purple, opposing
And the broad fields beneath them turn crimson,
Then howl I my heart nigh mad with rejoicing.

II

In hot summer have I great rejoicing
When the tempests kill the earth's foul peace,
And the lightnings from black heav'n flash crimson,
And the fierce thunders roar me their music
And the winds shriek through the clouds mad, opposing,
And through all the riven skies God's swords clash.

III

Hell grant soon we hear again the swords clash!
And the shrill neighs of destriers in battle rejoicing,
Spiked breast to spiked breast opposing!
Better one hour's stour than a year's peace
With fat boards, bawds, wine and frail music!
Bah! there's no wine like the blood's crimson!

IV

And I love to see the sun rise blood-crimson.
And I watch his spears through the dark clash
And it fills all my heart with rejoicing
And pries wide my mouth with fast music
When I see him so scorn and defy peace,
His lone might 'gainst all darkness opposing.

V

The man who fears war and squats opposing
My words for stour, hath no blood of crimson
But is fit only to rot in womanish peace
Far from where worth's won and the swords clash
For the death of such sluts I go rejoicing;
Yea, I fill all the air with my music.

VI

Papiols, Papiols, to the music!
There's no sound like to swords swords opposing,
No cry like the battle's rejoicing
When our elbows and swords drip the crimson
And our charges 'gainst "The Leopard's" rush clash.
May God damn for ever all who cry "Peace!"

VII

And let the music of the swords make them crimson!
Hell grant soon we hear again the swords clash!
Hell blot black for alway the thought "Peace"!

Ezra Pound