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Winchester Defender shells for Shockwave

JDK

.22LR
Interested in your opinions on Winchester Defender ammo in the Shockwave. 1 slug and 3 pellets. At very short distances what are the advantages and disadvantages? Do these or any of the buck loads really spread much at these ranges out of a short, cylinder choke barrel? Any experience shooting and patterning these loads?
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I’m late to the party with the Shockwave so apologies if this has been discussed previously.
 

Ernst

.30-06
"Philanthropist"
Up front, I've not shot these so my thoughs are solely based on experience over the years.

Guess my first thought is an "idea looking for a need".

The concerns I'd have would include the potential defamation of the three buckshot pellets as the travel down the barrel and secondly, the inaccuracy induced by the slug on the pellets after they leave the barrel. Certainly would need to pattern these to verify. I would also assume the buckshot pellets are steel vice lead given that lead would likely be greatly deformed by contact with the slug during firing. Any defamation of the pellets (lead or steel) would certainly impact both accuracy and effectiveness.

Don't think you can beat a 9 pellet 00 buckshot round for close in defense. But always remember your shot spread is roughly one inch per yard from the muzzle so aiming a shot is paramount. That said, if you need a slug then choose one that meets your requirement. One oz lead slugs do have their limitations.

Regards
 
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JDK

.22LR
Up front, I've not shot these so my thoughs are solely based on experience over the years.

Guess my first thought is an "idea looking for a need".

The concerns I'd have would include the potential defamation of the three buckshot pellets as the travel down the barrel and secondly, the inaccuracy induced by the slug on the pellets after they leave the barrel. Certainly would need to pattern these to verify. I would also assume the buckshot pellets are steel vice lead given that lead would likely be greatly deformed by contact with the slug during firing. Any defamation of the pellets (lead or steel) would certainly impact both accuracy and effectiveness.

Don't think you can beat a 9 pellet 00 buckshot round for close in defense. But always remember your shot spread is roughly one inch per yard from the muzzle so aiming a shot is paramount. That said, if you need a slug then choose one that meets your requirement. One oz lead slugs do have their limitations.

Regards
Great points… the deformation issue would certainly seem to negate any “best of both worlds” marketing. I ordered a variety of 00 Buck to acclimate myself to the gun and did buy a box of these out of curiosity. I’ll post how they pattern but I’m inclined to agree with you (in my limited experience) that 00 Buck is the ticket for this application. Thanks!
 

Ernst

.30-06
"Philanthropist"
JDK, got to thinking about these shells and remembered the old "buck & ball" shells of the 1800's that were primarily used in muskets. Back then the muskets were typically loaded with a single lead ball or in some cases with buckshot. But there was also a combination of the two called a "buck & ball" which is simular in configuration to these new Winchester offerings. Found a picture of a reproduction "shell" in which the powder, the ball and three bucks are premade to speed up reloading.

So guess somebody at Winchester is in the "reinvention" of an old idea! And likely touting it's newly discovered attributes!!!!!!

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JDK

.22LR
JDK, got to thinking about these shells and remembered the old "buck & ball" shells of the 1800's that were primarily used in muskets. Back then the muskets were typically loaded with a single lead ball or in some cases with buckshot. But there was also a combination of the two called a "buck & ball" which is simular in configuration to these new Winchester offerings. Found a picture of a reproduction "shell" in which the powder, the ball and three bucks are premade to speed up reloading.

So guess somebody at Winchester is in the "reinvention" of an old idea! And likely touting it's newly discovered attributes!!!!!!

View attachment 26712
Interesting! What’s the saying? “There’s nothing new under the sun”
 

nitesite

Average Guy
Moderator
"Philanthropist"
I wonder where they hide the 00 pellets. Under the slug?

In my opinion the velocity of 1150-fps is pretty slow. Decent buckshot (and slugs for that matter) should do 1350-fps for good effect. That is the LE standard. But across a room I guess 1150 would sure hurt.

And premium slug ammo (like Remington Express and Winchester Deer Hunter) still clocks 1600-fps. But those would be truly punishing in a Shockwave.
 
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Ernst

.30-06
"Philanthropist"
Dave, I finally looked the Winchester info up and here's the picture they show. Not much info but does say the buckshot pellets are coated so I'm assuming they are lead with some coating. If steel, not sure the need for coating. Agree with you on velocity. Wondering if the slower velocity is required so the buckshot pellets are not deformed? At very short range would assume this combination would hold together well but as the range grows I can't help but wonder if the spread of the three buckshot pellets aren't exponential. Be interesting if the OP can patten these at different distances and recover the pellets to see if they are deformed.

I've been shooting a Shockwave since they first came out and once you master the push-pull technique and aimed shot the recoil really isn't bad. However, that said, I do use Brenneke Black Magic 3 inch Magnums for bears. And with a muzzle velocity a little over 1500 ft/sec and a slug weight of 1 3/8 oz you do get a "little" recoil but still managable with practice. Certainly wouldn't adovcate that a new shooter immediately try this round!

Regards

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John A.

Unconstitutional laws are not laws.
Staff member
Administrator
Global Moderator
While I haven't patterned those shells, I have patterned a lot of others at varying distances.

And in very close distances (hallway, bedroom, etc) often times, the pellets don't even have enough time to separate from the wad. I used to have a lot of testing done on old sheetrock scraps that have unfortunately been lost due to photobucket that showed at very close distances that there would mostly be a big hole and very few pellets outside of the wad.

It's the internal ballistics in this case that's going to be so devastating once the pellets do start to do their own thing.

The other guys have mentioned that once the pellets and the wad do become their own projectile that is where the patterns would matter. And they'll fan out the further they travel of course.

nitesite and Ernst both have a lot of experience chucking slugs I'm sure. And I'm certain that higher velocities would be pretty important downrange somewhere. But at the same time, you also have to take into consideration not being able to help hold the gun still and recoil while shooting without a buttstock too. So having a "low brass" or managed recoil or handicap load may help mitigate that some because at the end of the day, if you can't hit what you're aiming at, it doesn't matter what the payload COULD do if you can't connect with it is all a moot point.

And lets' face it, a .69 caliber slug weighing 437 gr even at 1100 fps is very likely going to shut down central nervous systems even if it doesn't kill them automatically. There was a goofy zombie movie years ago that said "always double tap".
 
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Ernst

.30-06
"Philanthropist"
John, totally agree.

Your one line, "... , if you can't hit what you're aiming at, it doesn't matter what the payload COULD do if you can't connect with it is all a moot point." is spot on!!!!!

IMO, aiming is the most important technique to master whether it be a shoulder mounted weapon or a Shockwave. Wish the old myth of being a "scattergun" would go away. One inch spread per yard from the muzzle is a general rule that unforutantly is often forgotten.

Regards
 

JDK

.22LR
I’m grateful for the education. I have the standard midwestern sportsman‘s experience with a shotgun; waterfowl, turkey, skeet, etc. The Shockwave as a self/home defense tool is a work in progress for me. Glad to be here!
 

John A.

Unconstitutional laws are not laws.
Staff member
Administrator
Global Moderator
I’m grateful for the education. I have the standard midwestern sportsman‘s experience with a shotgun; waterfowl, turkey, skeet, etc. The Shockwave as a self/home defense tool is a work in progress for me. Glad to be here!


I put a shockwave pistol grip on my 500 for a while but at the end of the day, I prefer a stock. I tried it both ways, so you can't fault anyone for trying something new and outside of the norm for them. I just liked using a stock better.
 
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nitesite

Average Guy
Moderator
"Philanthropist"
I think I am going to change my mind about the ammo, and give this ammo a solid plus.

 
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The Winchester Defender ammo may as well be just a slug, if used much past 10 yards the buck goes all over the place (from two guns tested) and is a liability, the slug acts just as a Foster slug should, velocity of 1150 is fine ,1150 to 1250 is good for most any load, buck or slug. With regard to short barrel it's a none issue, just as capable as 18/20", most modern ammo gets to velocity in 14-18" , less sight radius can make distance a challenge but normal defense distance it's not a factor, from a bag rest the Shockwave is capable of 3" groups at 100 yards ( 3 shots fired 3 head shots on an IDPA target) with good 1 oz slugs at 1200 fps . The 3 buck pellets are lead, in some they are copper plated in others they are moly coated.
 
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