Question about Ghost Loading -- Why does it work?

[JCinPA]

I have never tried this, but I may this weekend. But I cannot for the life of me figure out why this works. If there is already a shell on the lifter when you fire the one in the chamber, why does the gun not try to feed another one, potentially jamming it up. I've seen enough videos on YouTube to believe it works, but I cannot figure out WHY it works, why it's reliable. Can anyone explain it to me?

Here is an example video. Less than 2 mins.

Thanks!

 

[Larry23433]

In theory with the shell sitting on the lifter the lifter no longer allows the shell stop to release a round from the magazine. Only once the floated round is fired will it allow the next shell to be loaded from the magazine as normal. Each gun is different in how this works which is why only certain guns can be ghost loaded. The gun needs to have a shell lifter that remains in the "down" position while in battery so a shell can physically fit, and the shell stop and interrupter mechanisms must remain engaged when a shell is on the lifter otherwise you will in fact get jams and double feeds.

Also there are guns that "should" be able to be ghost loaded but can't. The tree police have been pushing gun manufacturers to add features that prevent ghost loading so you can't "cheat" and load more than 3 rounds with a plug installed. So if you have a newer gun and you can't get it to ghost load properly.... that's probably why...

 

[Ernst]

I also think a good understanding of how the action works will help answer your question.

This is an xray view and lengthy video description of the how the action cycles. This should add to the description Apexkeeper gave above.

Hope this helps.

Regards

 

[Ernst]

I fully understand you have a 930 but I don't have a xray view of a 930 but the feed mechanism and loading principle is similar to the 500 in the video above.

Regards

 

[Larry23433]

I fully understand you have a 930 but I don't have a xray view of a 930 but the feed mechanism and loading principle is similar to the 500 in the video above.

Regards

And yet you can ghost load a 930 but not a 500. Dang you Mossberg!

 

[JCinPA]

Thanks, guys! I will try to wrap my head around this. I'm not as familiar with shotgun internal operations as I am with revolvers or the 1911. I do know it works because I just discovered the Marine Corps manual for the M4 contains instructions on how to ghost load it, so no doubt it works, just trying to know why.

Apexkeeper is telling me I need to know more about how the lifter and the shell stop and interrupter mechanism work. But at least now I understand there is some mechanical reason the gun "knows" there is a shell on the lifter and therefore it won't load another one. I'll keep at it till I figger it out.

 

[JCinPA]

Wow! I'm no engineer, although I do some shade tree gunsmithing, but that video is wonderful. I have a whole new appreciation for how mechanical engineers designed the Mossberg 500 operation, and without computers (I suspect, computers pretty much being used for moon shots and banking accounting functions back then). All smart guys with sharp pencils and graph paper. Yowza!

I still don't understand the mechanism that can allow the 930 to "feel" if there is a shell on the lifter or not, but I no longer feel the need to, except out of curiosity. Ghost loading works, and it works reliably or the Marine Corp would not have written it into its manual.

Thank you, gents, for pointing me to these resources.

 

[Larry23433]

It's easier to just claim it's magic lol

I can't explain the exact mechanism in a 930, but if you watch that 500 video from around the 19:00 mark you see how the stop and interrupter manipulate the shells in the magazine. The 500 cannot be ghost loaded but it still shows the basic function. If one of those stops fails to release, then a shell will not come out of the magazine.

So the ghost loaded shell isn't just sitting there innocently. The gun doesn't "feel" the shell. The shell is physically forcing the lifter down. By that lifter being stuck down, "something" is not allowing the shell stop to release. It's physically holding the stop via one of the insane amount of trip points and ramps along the action. Shotguns may be simple but they are also extremely complicated little buggers as well lol.

 

[JCinPA]

That makes perfect sense, thank you. I could not remember the exact procedure today so did not have a successful ghost load with the 930 but I will next time. I'm jazzed that the Marine Corps Manual describes it, that makes me feel it's perfectly OK.

 

[Larry23433]

That makes perfect sense, thank you. I could not remember the exact procedure today so did not have a successful ghost load with the 930 but I will next time. I'm jazzed that the Marine Corps Manual describes it, that makes me feel it's perfectly OK.

I'll bet it's not in the Army manual though. Marines do a lot of weird stuff lol.

It's mostly done in competition shooting though, I would never do it for home defense, a magazine extension is much more reliable. No reason to risk adding a potential failure to a situation where you probably won't need that extra shell anyway. But that's just my opinion on that...

 

[Ernst]

I don't have a 930 but I think all you're really doing is pre-loading the elevator.

Nothing in the action functions any differently than it would otherwise.

The ghost shell on the elevator holds next shell in the magazine tube back and as elevator moves up after the chambered round is fired the cartridge interrupter keeps shell in magazine from falling out and causing a double feed. After firing the elevator falls back down releasing the cartridge interrupter, next shell pops out of the magazine onto the elevator and you're back to normal operations.

That's my analysis.
Regards

 

[Larry23433]

I don't have a 930 but I think all you're really doing is pre-loading the elevator.

Nothing in the action functions any differently than it would otherwise.

The ghost shell on the elevator holds next shell in the magazine tube back and as elevator moves up after the chambered round is fired the cartridge interrupter keeps shell in magazine from falling out and causing a double feed. After firing the elevator falls back down releasing the cartridge interrupter, next shell pops out of the magazine onto the elevator and you're back to normal operations.

That's my analysis.
Regards

I can't see the shell sitting on the lifter being solely able to hold the shell in the magazine from coming out. The lifter is longer than the shell so the floated shell has room to move backwards. The magazine spring would have more than enough power to jam the floated shell back enough to release a round from the magazine. The shell in the magazine only needs to advance the thickness of the rim before it's no longer held in position by the stops. You may be right but I just can't see how it wouldn't cause a double feed unless the shell stop is held in place through the process.

 

[JCinPA]

Yeah, it has to do with the operation of the shell stops, but I have no doubts about its reliability now, though. I also agree, a 2-shot extension is a better idea for HD, but frankly, in a HD situation, I am hard-pressed to think of a situation where I'd need more than 5 rounds of 00-Buck to get the job done. Unless my home was being invaded by a street gang, I feel pretty good with the shotty and am not worried about capacity as much as I would be with a pistol. And I have a velcro shot card on the side, anyway. If I need more than 11 rounds of 00-buck to solve my problem, well. My time was probably just up at that point. lol

 

[JCinPA]

I just wanted to play around with it at the range today. I would not keep a shotty for HD loaded that way, either.

 

[Larry23433]

You could also add a match saver, with a little practice you can load that match saver round so fast it might as well just be in the magazine.

 

[cmcdonald]

Anyone know if there are other ghost-loading capable models of shotguns out there?

EDIT:
So, with a little google search I answered my own question. Yes...yes there are quite a few other models of shotguns that are easily ghost loaded and others that seem to require some fenagling (Rem 870 I'm looking at you) in order to ghost load. It seems that for most a mag extension is probably the preferred solution to adding another round or two (or more).

Before I had even heard of ghost loading I added a +2 mag extension to my 870 and haven't looked back. Nor ever even thought I'd need more rounds on hand than I can cram in the tube and carry on the stock and my sling. I can carry an extra 8 rounds that way. If I'm feeling really unlucky I can strap my bandolier across my shoulder which holds another 20 or so rounds I think...LOL!

 

[Larry23433]

If I need more than 11 rounds of 00-buck to solve my problem, well. My time was probably just up at that point. lol

I agree, I almost never need to defend myself against a small army invading my home.

 

[Rodburner]

Guess I’m glad I don’t have a clue why this is even a thing. If it’s to cheat in an extra shell in a 3 shell state during hunting, how crappy a shot must one be if you can’t drop the target in 3 shots then casually cram in 3 more? Who would know? If you were a “I’ll do what I want, you’re not the boss of me” kind a guy, then pull out the stick and load er up. If a warden stopped you on the trail, that 4th ghost round is gonna eject right along side the other ticket getters. And I know that home defense use isn’t the aim of doing this, so I’ll just continue sleeping good at night knowing my shockwave has all the appropriate holes filled, with no loose and dangly bits popping out. Lol

 

[Larry23433]

Guess I’m glad I don’t have a clue why this is even a thing. If it’s to cheat in an extra shell in a 3 shell state during hunting, how crappy a shot must one be if you can’t drop the target in 3 shots then casually cram in 3 more? Who would know? If you were a “I’ll do what I want, you’re not the boss of me” kind a guy, then pull out the stick and load er up. If a warden stopped you on the trail, that 4th ghost round is gonna eject right along side the other ticket getters. And I know that home defense use isn’t the aim of doing this, so I’ll just continue sleeping good at night knowing my shockwave has all the appropriate holes filled, with no loose and dangly bits popping out. Lol

I care way more about what the squirrel police say than the ATF/government... I live next to conservation land, I've worked with the DEP on fish stocking programs. I'm a huge conservationist. I'm not a big hunter but as you said, if you suck so bad you can't hit a bird with 3 shots, having more rounds isn't your problem. Just stop hunting lol

So I got no problem with the 3 round rule... but I still think it sucks that gun companies are making ways to stop ghost loading just because of "bird law".

 

[Jmm14534]

To all who are still interested.
I have been playing around with my M930 to try and shed some light on this. First of all ghost loading is not easy. Maybe with practice it gets better but I’m not good at it.
With no shells in the gun I can’t seem to see how ghost loading works. I open and close the bolt and it does not seem to be possible.
When I ghost load the gun it works. My hypothesis is that the mechanical systems in the gun work differently when load vs unloaded. This makes sense because when unloaded you pull the charging handle to the rear the bolt locks back. When loaded the bolt does not lock back until you’ve fired the last shot. I think this is key.
I ghost loaded the shotgun with 3 rounds.
This pic is showing the ghost load positioning. The bolt is closed and there is a shell in the pipe (note the safety is on). There is a shell on the elevator and a shell in the tube. You can see that the shell stop is in the “closed” position.

I then pull the charging handle slowly to the rear and as I extract and eject the shell in the pipe the shell stop remains closed.
Once the shell ejects the lifter immediately lifts and the shell stops remains closed. This is the step that does not jive with an unloaded gun.


Once the shell is ejected the bolt comes forward to chamber the ghost load (pic above). While this is going on the shell stop remains closed.
Once the bolt is closed the lifter drops and the shell stop is opened momentarily to push a new shell onto the lifter. This cycle repeats itself until the tube is empty.

I don’t have the full story but it works. There is something in the mechanism when the gun is loaded that times the shell stop to only “open” when the lifter is down and the bolt is closed or almost closed.

Maybe others can chime in on the specific parts of the system that work together to make this happen.

At the end of the day it’s a neat range trick for competition shooters but not really of value to me.