Why are makers moving away from HTL?

[Rossignol]

In the recent past, the big names all made a HTL load, often for non toxic waterfowl hunting. Turns out the HTL stuff is also good on predators, even down to something like a B sized load.

But manufacturers like Remington and Winchester no longer offer the heavy tungsten alloys and bismuth. The stuff was def more expensive, possibly it's downfall. But like the B load I mentioned above, the stuff was proven to be deep penetrating at longer ranges which were previously though unobtainable. (Sidebar: finding a choke to make the stuff effective to longer ranges is a challenge)

The only one I know of still making a HTL load is Federal, but its offered only in FliteControl. For some, that's not an issue, but ported and wad stripping choke negate any benefit of the FliteControl. It's also about $4 per shot. However, some Hevishot is $5 a round or better. Other heavy options have been anywhere from 2 to $4 each, competitive I think.

There's still stock left in some places of discontinued products. One I like is that Winchester 3" B. Winchester has discontinued all of their Xtended Range loads. All of them, even those heavy waterfowl loads. I don't get it. It's heavier than steel and doesn't require special chokes, not like the steel shot which is light, loses energy quickly, and requires a choke capable of dealing with it.

Any other thoughts?

 

[oli700]

I think its a money thing , could be the shot getting too expensive

 

[Rossignol]

I think its a money thing , could be the shot getting too expensive

I think that too, but Hevishot and Federal seem to be the exceptions with Hevishot being the most expensive. I've also recently learned that the shot itself is available for reloaders.

 

[CaddmannQ]

I've never shot anything but lead; however, pretty soon everything sold here will be a lead-free alloy, so the animals we miss while shooting don't die from eating all the nasty lead bullets we just leave lying around on the ground.

Bronze and copper is all you can hunt with many places in California, because of the lovable lead-eating condor and those precious lead-eating coyotes.

 

[Rossignol]

I like the heavy stuff, its a far better alternative to steel, though more expensive.

I'm not familiar with bronze and copper. Is it just plated?

 

[CaddmannQ]

No, they're solid copper alloys. Copper/tin, copper/zinc, copper/tin/zinc etc.

It's all you can hunt with in the "Condor habitat zone" now.
Much more expensive.

I think there are some trick rules about reloading it here too.

 

[CaddmannQ]

I see solid copper, brass & bronze slugs going for like $1.20 each in 100s for 300 gr .45 cal

96 cents just for .38s

400 gr .50 cal for your Beowolf? over $1.55 each in 100s

Just for the slugs!

I think part of the high cost may be the California certification required.

 

[Rossignol]

California sounds nuts.

 

[John A.]

FliteControl. It's also about $4 per shot. However, some Hevishot is $5 a round or better. Other heavy options have been anywhere from 2 to $4 each, competitive I think.

Any other thoughts?

^ and there's why I think it's going away. Costs too much.

I've seen some manufacturers test out little square pellets, and a host of other projectile types, but the only people who seem to be buying them are waterfowlers and other locales where "lead" is outlawed to be used for hunting and deemed poisonous and toxic to the environment, despite lead being found naturally in the environment all over the world (facepalm-more loss of critical thinking processes).

You wanna learn something ironic?

These same people who banned lead for hunting, allow bismuth to be used instead.

And what's ironic about that you ask?

Bismuth is slightly radioactive, chemically closely resembles arsenic, and from wiki:
researchers at the Institut d'Astrophysique Spatiale in Orsay, France, measured the alpha emission half-life of 209Bi to be 7026599594400000000♠1.9×1019 years,[33] over a billion times longer than the current estimated age of the universe. Owing to its extraordinarily long half-life

Just remember that the next time you reach for that bottle of Pepto.

 

[oli700]

I see solid copper, brass & bronze slugs going for like $1.20 each in 100s for 300 gr .45 cal

96 cents just for .38s

400 gr .50 cal for your Beowolf? over $1.55 each in 100s

Just for the slugs!

They are super expensive but about unbeatable in expansion and weight retention.
In fact I did a bunch of hillbilly testing trying to find a good defensive round for a an AR pistol by reloading a bunch of different powders and projectiles and shooting them through a chronograph into water jugs.
Barns all copper was the clear winner because their copper TSX expands at the lower speeds the pistol produces from 556.
I got 30 53gr TSX riding in my mag at all times
But I agree , its about the choice....

 

[CaddmannQ]

California sounds nuts.

Never a dull moment.

Remember, Armageddon is going to start here. We have the kind of population where 10,000 terrorists could lie in wait 20 years working at the mini-mart and selling realestate.

Then one day the cell phone network gets hacked, everybody's wallpaper goes jihadi, and the end begins...

Hey, that sounds like a good novel! I might write one before there's no-one left to read it. LOL

Our only hope is to co-opt all the young moslems into the happy mass-consumerism-cycle that is america. (with a little "A'.)

 

[CaddmannQ]

BTW, I don't really think such a network could remain secret, but remember Poe. Hide in plain sight.

 

[oli700]

I would believe Poe but instead of terrorist insert United Nation insurgents ......
my tin foil is itchy and unclear but if such a thing exist it would make since to disarm California in the process because California is full of people that don't take shit really, 49ers, cowboys, people that made through the Donner Pass, Oregon Trail are the blood line of the people who made California a state.
Real California suffers from over populated places making stupid laws, Real California don't take no shit
Quite honestly when you really think about it the entire Western seaboard is heading that way .....who and what kind of power can possibly be behind it? World Power .....we Americans are the last of the Mohicans as far as the rest of the world is concerned , the last true stronghold of free people although most of us take it for granted or don't realize it

 

[CaddmannQ]

California was overrun by the seething masses, once it became easy to travel here.
But we won't be overtaken or disarmed easily. It'll have to be by subterfuge.

In fact we're arming more and more I believe, on a gun-per-capita basis.
But maybe there are fewer and fewer of us that are doing it.

(edit...typo)

 

[John A.]

^ And if that's the case, those few will become very popular if something happens.

But that would very likely be a bad thing.

 

[CaddmannQ]

. . .what kind of power can possibly be behind it? World Power ....

Well, IMO rich criminals practically run the world, and would take over everything if they could manage it. They sure have us chasing our collective tail. I don't see One-World Government by universal acclamation, that's for sure. It'll be dog-eat-dog.

Hell, many of us probably deserve it. Asleep at the wheel....always depending on the more motivated and more capable.

 

[CaddmannQ]

. . . But that would very likely be a bad thing.

More guns in public hands? How is that a bad thing?

 

[Rossignol]

More guns in public hands? How is that a bad thing?

I think that's referencing the legal gun owners becoming popular. But in a bad way. Unwanted attention.

 

[CaddmannQ]

Ah...

Well I can attest to that.

Almost everyone I know who isn't a gun owner thinks I've become a card-carrying lunatic since I joined the rifle and pistol club.

Screw 'em. I was already a lunatic.

 

[Rossignol]

Yup, first rate by the looks of it!

But that's a cool board!