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.223/5.56 Ammo Results Part 2

Discussion in '.223 Remington/5.56 NATO' started by Water Monkey, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

    Messages:
    3,831
    OK Got a new rear iron sight and sighted in using the RIBZ (Revised Improvised BattleSight Zero) method. Also got a chance to shoot 3 types of Ammo with 2 vendors - PMC and Privi Partizan (ALL 55 Grain Bullets). 99% of the shooting was from the bench with a rifle rest.

    First Up PMC XTac M193 (5.56 NATO):

    [​IMG]


    100 Yards:

    [​IMG]

    During this set I felt she was shooting a little high and I was still in the zero process. I brought the front sight in down 1 click and I was happy with the results. I then moved on to the 50 yard to see how this grouped.

    50 Yards:

    [​IMG]

    Happy with the results. I actually forgot to bring down my rear sight 2 clicks on the first 4 shots as part of the RIBZ Process for 50 Yards so disregard the 4 higher shots :)


    Next Up Privi Partizan M193 (5.56 NATO):

    [​IMG]

    100 Yards:

    [​IMG]

    Seems like much tighter groups. Got 2 low flyers. I'm taking responsibility for that. I was getting eye fatigue looking through the small appeture after the zero process.

    50 Yards:

    [​IMG]

    Yeah I was really happy about this group. 2 shots basically dead on center and most of the group was really tight.

    Finally PMC .223:

    [​IMG]

    100 Yards:

    [​IMG]

    I had a feeling at the last range outting that the .223 ammo didnt group well at 100 yards. I now will confirm that out to 100 yards I'm getting a spread out group with .223 ammo. it might just be the PMC? But as of right now in my 1:8 twist rate in the 100 yard range I will expect .223 ammo to have a larger group spread.

    50 Yards:

    [​IMG]

    At 50 Yards this is great plinking ammo. However for the same price of the Privi Partizan it makes more sense to go with the 5.56 NATO stuff for bulk in the future so I can go to 100 yards with more confidence and tighter groups.


    Well I put on a vertical grip and for most of the range I was shooting from bench to zero in and once I was confident that my zero was as tight as I'm going to get it for iron sights I went to town before the last cease fire for the day with the .223 PMC Ammo from a standing position and shooting fairly fast. Target was 50 yards away:

    [​IMG]
  2. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

    Messages:
    12,760
    Lookin real good man!

    There's obviously more to sighting in the mil rear sight, but after that how does it compare to the MBUS? Would you say the RIBZ system got you pretty close?

    You mentioned eye fatigue. Do you shoot both eyes open?

    Groups are looking good too! My rifle is about the same with a few brands. So far the only one that really deosnt perform well is the Fed bulk .223. Beyond that, I don't shoot well enough to compare groups. I always have a few that are wide...
  3. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

    Messages:
    3,831
    Based on both the MBUS and the A4 Rear Detachable sights I actually prefer the A4 sight for a few reasons:

    1) the Zero process didnt take too long. I think I was at 15 or 20 shots before I considered zero at 100 yards (which is preferred to zero with the RIBZ). The scariest part was using the allen key to mess with the A1 sight which in retrospect was really simple to do. The biggest pain was the front post as I didn't bring needle nose pliers with me so moving it up and down was a task.

    2) Very little compensation needed when varying the distance now. Just 2 clicks in either direction on the rear sight and basically where ever the top of the front post is pointed that's where the bullet is going to end up. With the MBUS I was compensating a little between 50 and 100 yards based on the intended bullet path.

    3) So far it seems my groups are tighter and hitting where I want them to (judging by actual dead center bullseye) which provides me more confidence with my aim.

    I only shoot with both eyes open when hitting clays. For paper I tend to shoot with my right eye open (my dominant eye). I've tried both but I'm more on my mark with just my right eye open.
  4. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

    Messages:
    12,760
    I appreciate your feedback!

    I have to compensate a decent bit for elevation also. My shots land center, but I have to guess-timate up and down. I've knocked the post out from under my targets at 50 yards and generally have to walk it on target. If the A1 rear with elevation adjustment takes some of that guess work out of the equation, I'm all for it!

    Have you looked for front post tools? I have one that has both the 5 prong and 4 prong. Theyre fairly inexpensive and you can pick em up just about anywhere!

    It took me a little gettin used to, but I've been shootin both eyes open with everything for awhile now. It def seems to reduce eye strain I think! The red dot I have on my rifle seemed to help make the transition easier too. I cant do it with a scope though! :lol:

    One more question;
    What does each click of elevation on the A1 rear represent in MOA? Like my red dot is 1/4 MOA or 4 clicks per 1" at 100 yards. I can see how havin that elevation dial would be extremely beneficial!!!

    Thanks again!
  5. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

    Messages:
    3,831
    No prob buddy it's a learning process for me as well. But taking the guess out of the game definitely helps in the long run and under stress will allow for better shot placement.

    I'm a noob at all this with MOA and such but I did some quick research and it seems with Rear A4 sights marked 6/3 each click on the elevation knob is the equivalent of 1/2 MOA (these are primarily detachable sights). Fixed rear sights seemed to be marked 8/3 and each click on the elevation knob equates to 1 MOA. Thus the reason for the IBZ or RIBZ methods you need to double the clicks in either direction to get your shot placement on target with the detachable rear sights.

    As far as the front post tools. I've seen them on websites. But in my location it's difficult to get certain things in my local gun store. In all honesty now that she's dialed in... Not sure I would have needed one. The process is quick with needle nose pliers if I need to re-zero her but I dont see that needed any time soon.

    I'll try the both eyes open method. Gonna take some time and practice :)
  6. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

    Messages:
    12,760
    Ahhh! Ibz ans ribz are makin more sense now and the 6/3 and 8/3 and reason for doubling the clicks. 1/2" MOA would actually be prefered over a 1 MOA adjustment for me.

    Man, I have trouble with my eyes and learnin to shoot with both eyes helps a TON! Especially if I'm shooting at closer targets, havin the added peripheral is great! Its like the difference between lookin through scope and a 1x red dot, it makes pickin up the next target so much quicker!
  7. nitesite

    nitesite Sheepdog Moderator "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    5,660
    Water Monkey~

    Great to see your results coming together for you! I'm real proud of you for striving and succeeding in getting a good battlesight zero.

    As far as a front sight tool, a .223/5.56 cartridge is all you need; just push the bullet tip into the front sight detent pin and push the post around.

    Let me make one comment, if I may. It has been mentioned by several members in your threads that the sight you are using is an A1 detatchable. The reality is, and I am nitpicking too much I am sure, is that it isn't an A1 sight. That sight was first seen on the M16 and M16A1 rifle which was part of the fized carry handle upper receiver. The A1 sight looks like this:

    [​IMG]

    You can see that it is windage adjustable only.

    Then the M16A2 rifle was released and issued to troops and it incorporated a fixed carry handle but with an improved rear sight that was adjustable for 8/3 via an elevation drum.

    The A2 sight assembly looks like this inside the fixed handle

    [​IMG]

    Later, with the advent of Army and Marine units being issued the removeable carry handle rifle with picatinney rail for ACOG, Aimpoint and other optics the rifle received the designation of M16A3. Thusly, the sight assembly incorporated into a removeable carry handle is known as an A3 sight and is marked 8/3 for ranging (like the A2 rifle) out to 800 meters.

    And the current M16A4/M4 carbine (shorter barrel) has a similar elevation drum to the A2/A3 rear sight but it is now marked for 6/3 ranges and has finer click adjustments.

    And I know I'm horrible and should just STFU more often than I should but here's the truth... your LMT rear sight for picatinney rail is a removeable A4 sight assembly. I'm just trying to eliminate any confusion about calling it an A1 sight. Read the notes here:

    http://www.lmtstore.com/accessories/sig ... sight.html

    Again, I am so excited to see you and other rifle shooters learning about the Col Santose method of shooting smarter with iron sights. Great Job~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    With appologies,

    Dave (nitesite)
  8. Rossignol

    Rossignol The Original Sheriff Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator Sponsor

    Messages:
    12,760
    Dave, youre the man, man! Youre right, and I've been guilty of it too, callin it the A1.

    In all honesty, I prefer to know the correct way to call things, Thanks for the help Dave and for pointin us nOOb rifle shooters in the right direction! Sincerely, I appreciate the help!!!
  9. carbinemike

    carbinemike Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    5,964
    I followed the first thread and this one now. It's amazing what I have picked up in this board since joining. Thanks go to those posting on this thread!
  10. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

    Messages:
    3,831
    Dave,

    No apologies needed, thank you so much for clearing that up with the A4. I'd rather be corrected than go around sounding foolish. You rock for introducing me to the RIBZ method.

    My best,

    Water Monkey
    (Raul)
  11. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Moderator Supporter

    Messages:
    3,831
    Voted. Felt the need to get out and exercise my 2nd Amendment Rights.

    I have to say I am IN LOVE with this Smith & Wesson M&P 15 Sport. Shooting Prvy Partisan 5.56 NATO at 50 Yards on the bench all sighted in with irons using the RIBZ method:

    [​IMG]
  12. oli700

    oli700 12g Supporter "Philanthropist"

    Messages:
    9,269
    I got time behind my FIL’s sport and it’s a great shooting rifle !

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