...and in this week's "ammo for the antigunners" news...
- Thread starter Tom396
- Start date
Bobster
.30-06
Gunned down
.270 WIN
Chick Norris round house kick ??
Then the Sheriff's office is culpable in the deaths of 6 people. If it is their responsibility to follow up on these situations, and were aware of the videos and threats, they may have failed to protect the public-at-large. I know they can't be all-knowing and everywhere at once but there needs to be a process to validate and rank these types of complaints/actions, especially in today's environment. I'm sure there will be quite a bit of discussion behind the scenes.
One thing is certain...the cloak over the mental health privacy in these cases needs to be withdrawn, and the inability of the mental health providers to "ask" for help needs to be remedied.
It's true… but those cases were for protection of specific individuals. In this instance, it seems they failed to protect the general public. Which, is what the SCOTUS ruled…. But "what difference does it make" now.
True
True, John. They do not have to protect me as an individual. However, they have a duty to protect the overall public, and in this instance, if they had the info as reported, they failed and may have partial responsibility for the outcome. A lot will depend on what they knew and when they knew it. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it comes out that they knew well in advance but were told to sit on it by the same people that are pushing for more controls. Remember, it was stated "by any means necessary". Doesn't it surprise anyone at the increase in the number of shootings that have occurred in just the last couple of years? Oh yeah, more people own guns...doh...
True, John. They do not have to protect me as an individual. However, they have a duty to protect the overall public, and in this instance, if they had the info as reported, they failed and may have partial responsibility for the outcome. A lot will depend on what they knew and when they knew it. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it comes out that they knew well in advance but were told to sit on it by the same people that are pushing for more controls. Remember, it was stated "by any means necessary". Doesn't it surprise anyone at the increase in the number of shootings that have occurred in just the last couple of years? Oh yeah, more people own guns...doh...
I'm sorry, but I just do not feel the police was any more responsible for this any more than you or I are.
Even if someone had reported the &#% head and they did a wellness check, if he was showing no very obvious signs of mental problems or animosity, the police may would not have picked up on anything.
Police are not psychiatrists, they are not really trained for that sort of thing and as a general rule, do not prevent anything and usually do not respond to anything until after a crime has been committed.
If the guy wasn't showing any blatent signs of being a danger to his self or others, the policemens' hands were tied.
If the police did view the videos and ran a quick check on the gun registry would they have enough evidence to institute a 5150? I've been recently reading up on this law in CA:
WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE
SECTION 5150-5155
5150. (a) When a person, as a result of a mental health disorder,
is a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled,
a peace officer, professional person in charge of a facility
designated by the county for evaluation and treatment, member of the
attending staff, as defined by regulation, of a facility designated
by the county for evaluation and treatment, designated members of a
mobile crisis team, or professional person designated by the county
may, upon probable cause, take, or cause to be taken, the person into
custody for a period of up to 72 hours for assessment, evaluation,
and crisis intervention, or placement for evaluation and treatment in
a facility designated by the county for evaluation and treatment and
approved by the State Department of Health Care Services. At a
minimum, assessment, as defined in Section 5150.4, and evaluation, as
defined in subdivision (a) of Section 5008, shall be conducted and
provided on an ongoing basis. Crisis intervention, as defined in
subdivision (e) of Section 5008, may be provided concurrently with
assessment, evaluation, or any other service.
WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE
SECTION 5150-5155
5150. (a) When a person, as a result of a mental health disorder,
is a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled,
a peace officer, professional person in charge of a facility
designated by the county for evaluation and treatment, member of the
attending staff, as defined by regulation, of a facility designated
by the county for evaluation and treatment, designated members of a
mobile crisis team, or professional person designated by the county
may, upon probable cause, take, or cause to be taken, the person into
custody for a period of up to 72 hours for assessment, evaluation,
and crisis intervention, or placement for evaluation and treatment in
a facility designated by the county for evaluation and treatment and
approved by the State Department of Health Care Services. At a
minimum, assessment, as defined in Section 5150.4, and evaluation, as
defined in subdivision (a) of Section 5008, shall be conducted and
provided on an ongoing basis. Crisis intervention, as defined in
subdivision (e) of Section 5008, may be provided concurrently with
assessment, evaluation, or any other service.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this, John. If the police are not trained to ID someone then why bother to send them in the first place? And in force? If his psychiatrist thought he needed a wellness check then he should have been taken in to a location to have it done. Or the psychiatrist should have been with the police. Hell, they drag people in for far lesser things, why not this time? By their own admittance no gun registry check had been performed...a little odd considering the depth of registration in CA. That should have been done if for no other reason than for the police officer's protection.
And the cops do not need any reason to take you into custody other than a dr's phone call.
This was based on a 2011 incident where a woman was thought to be suicidal and her Dr called police. They, after talking to her and finding her to be ok, broke thru her door and arrested her. They subsequently found one handgun and confiscated it. This is what should have happened in Roger's case but it didn't. The CA police officer's hands were not tied, they could have taken him into custody but chose not to.
Tom396
.30-06
I'm preaching to the choir, I know it. That said, I believe we are creating these psychopaths.
The very way we interact with one another, nowadays, is significant part of it. There is a LOT less face to face social interaction. We are bombarded with images of how we are supposed to act. Total miscreants are what now qualify as primary role models for our youth. Those miscreants are the ones setting the social norms for an entire society. Yeah, there are genuinely organic reasons for these behaviors. There are plenty of mind altering drugs being prescribed as readily as aspirin. And there are truly physically damaged brains out there.
My own belief is that how we think is what is driving these acts of violence. It's becoming a more and more course society, everyday. I'm actually surprised we don't see a LOT more of this violence. Doesn't really matter if it's done with bare hands, vehicles, firearms, edged weapons, or whatever is handy. I just think we are going to see a lot more of it, from here on out. Take care. Tom Worthington
The very way we interact with one another, nowadays, is significant part of it. There is a LOT less face to face social interaction. We are bombarded with images of how we are supposed to act. Total miscreants are what now qualify as primary role models for our youth. Those miscreants are the ones setting the social norms for an entire society. Yeah, there are genuinely organic reasons for these behaviors. There are plenty of mind altering drugs being prescribed as readily as aspirin. And there are truly physically damaged brains out there.
My own belief is that how we think is what is driving these acts of violence. It's becoming a more and more course society, everyday. I'm actually surprised we don't see a LOT more of this violence. Doesn't really matter if it's done with bare hands, vehicles, firearms, edged weapons, or whatever is handy. I just think we are going to see a lot more of it, from here on out. Take care. Tom Worthington
I think you're right. I also think the media (including the internet) is aiding and abetting by publicizing and hyping what would have have been purely local news a few years ago, but is now national news for days or weeks. Everybody and their brother just has to get their 2cents worth of analysis and solutions on the air. Same goes for politicians.
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I think the proliferation of prescriptions for mood altering drugs have a good deal to do with it. We had Road Runner and the Coyote, Tom and Jerry, Batman and Robin...all full of violence. We all turned out pretty normal (for the most part). We also played outside everyday, all year round. Now it is sit in front of the computer or smart phone and twitter, facebook, etc. Add the drugs and it appears to be a recipe for disaster.
Gunned down
.270 WIN
That's all I have to say about that
MikeT
.270 WIN
The failure rests on dumbass. The family and the doctor did what they should have done with the exception of an involuntary commitment. I feel the doctor and the parents should have to explain when the deviant little f..ker was not committed. If they are proven to be negligent in this regard, hen they should face the consequences (If any).
The effects of prescription drugs and their role in these events are blatantly apparent. This issue is nothing new.
August 1st, 1966, Charles Whitman stabbed his mother and his wife to death, then made his way to the 27th floor observation deck of the University of Texas Tower where he proceeded to kill 13 people and wound 32 others. With him in the tower were a machete, a 6mm Remington 700 ADL, an M1 carbine, a .35 cal Remington m141, a sawed-off 12 gauge, a .357mag S&W 19, a 9mm Luger P08, a .25cal Galesi-Brescia, and 700 rounds of ammunition.
Then Gov. John Connally commissioned a "task force" which determined Whitman's actions likely resulted from a congenital brain tumor and the use of prescription drugs including valium and dextroamphetamine, an antidepressant which was an early form of the ADHD drug Adderall. Whitman had complained of constant headaches and uncontrolled anger during visits with five different university doctors in the year leading up to the shootings including the university's staff psychiatrist, Dr. Maurice Dean Heatly.
From Dr. Heatly's notes during Whitman's visit on March 29, 1966, four months before the shooting...
After the one session Whitman never returned to see Dr. Heatly again although he did comment on the meeting in his suicide note...
Any of this sound familiar?
Virtually all perpetrators of these mass shootings were on a form of prescribed antidepressant or psychostimulant medication which have a LONG history of documented side effects up to and including psychotic episodes. Prolonged use of these medications can cause amphetamine psychosis and even excited delirium characterized by a combination of anxiety, disorientation, delusions, hallucinations, violent and irratic behavior, elevated body temperature, and an insensitivity to pain. Many of these individuals had reached out to others, even professionals and expressed their suicidal and homicidal impulses.
Anybody want to guess why this information isn't pushed to the forefront of the conversation?
In 2013, the U.S. firearms industry's gross economic impact grew to an impressive $37.7 billion. In contrast, big pharma generated $284.6 billion domestically supported by total international revenues approaching $900 billion last year. With a commercial for a different medication on the TV every five minutes, which way do you suppose the media is going to swing when it comes time to point fingers? Have you ever listened to the disclaimers being rattled off while you watch smiling people romp through flowered meadows? They tell you this stuff could kill you and that it has the potential to cause psychotic episodes in their TV ads. Yet physicians continue to prescribe these psycho-stimulants for everything from blood pressure control to kids that must be "defective" 'cause they don't mind their parents.
Still, the blame for these shootings cannot be laid on pharmaceutical companies any more than firearms manufacturers can be held accountable for the role their products play. The fault in the system cannot be pointed at pharmaceutical distribution or prescription any more than we can accept that the system for firearm sales and ownership approvals is flawed. Facts are that these prescription drugs help millions of people on a daily basis compared to the occasional psychotic episode that can attributed to their misuse. The flaw, in my opinion, is that medical professionals have seemingly no accountability for monitoring the effects of these mood altering drugs once they are prescribed. Once a firearm is sold, responsibility lies solely with the individual who has it in their possession. Once medication is prescribed, the patient cannot be held 100% accountable for their actions under mood/mind altering drugs. The physician should be directly responsible for the proper application and consumption of the medication. In the case of minors, the parents have to share that responsibility as they are the only ones who can monitor the effects of the medication and report any changes in behavior to the prescribing physician.
The fundamental breakdown in this system of responsibility lies with the medical profession's assembly line approach to patient care coupled with the decay of the basic parental obligation to pay attention to one's children. Add unattended firearms to this mixture and the likelihood of disaster becomes a statistical inevitability...
August 1st, 1966, Charles Whitman stabbed his mother and his wife to death, then made his way to the 27th floor observation deck of the University of Texas Tower where he proceeded to kill 13 people and wound 32 others. With him in the tower were a machete, a 6mm Remington 700 ADL, an M1 carbine, a .35 cal Remington m141, a sawed-off 12 gauge, a .357mag S&W 19, a 9mm Luger P08, a .25cal Galesi-Brescia, and 700 rounds of ammunition.
Then Gov. John Connally commissioned a "task force" which determined Whitman's actions likely resulted from a congenital brain tumor and the use of prescription drugs including valium and dextroamphetamine, an antidepressant which was an early form of the ADHD drug Adderall. Whitman had complained of constant headaches and uncontrolled anger during visits with five different university doctors in the year leading up to the shootings including the university's staff psychiatrist, Dr. Maurice Dean Heatly.
From Dr. Heatly's notes during Whitman's visit on March 29, 1966, four months before the shooting...
After the one session Whitman never returned to see Dr. Heatly again although he did comment on the meeting in his suicide note...
Any of this sound familiar?
Virtually all perpetrators of these mass shootings were on a form of prescribed antidepressant or psychostimulant medication which have a LONG history of documented side effects up to and including psychotic episodes. Prolonged use of these medications can cause amphetamine psychosis and even excited delirium characterized by a combination of anxiety, disorientation, delusions, hallucinations, violent and irratic behavior, elevated body temperature, and an insensitivity to pain. Many of these individuals had reached out to others, even professionals and expressed their suicidal and homicidal impulses.
Anybody want to guess why this information isn't pushed to the forefront of the conversation?
In 2013, the U.S. firearms industry's gross economic impact grew to an impressive $37.7 billion. In contrast, big pharma generated $284.6 billion domestically supported by total international revenues approaching $900 billion last year. With a commercial for a different medication on the TV every five minutes, which way do you suppose the media is going to swing when it comes time to point fingers? Have you ever listened to the disclaimers being rattled off while you watch smiling people romp through flowered meadows? They tell you this stuff could kill you and that it has the potential to cause psychotic episodes in their TV ads. Yet physicians continue to prescribe these psycho-stimulants for everything from blood pressure control to kids that must be "defective" 'cause they don't mind their parents.
Still, the blame for these shootings cannot be laid on pharmaceutical companies any more than firearms manufacturers can be held accountable for the role their products play. The fault in the system cannot be pointed at pharmaceutical distribution or prescription any more than we can accept that the system for firearm sales and ownership approvals is flawed. Facts are that these prescription drugs help millions of people on a daily basis compared to the occasional psychotic episode that can attributed to their misuse. The flaw, in my opinion, is that medical professionals have seemingly no accountability for monitoring the effects of these mood altering drugs once they are prescribed. Once a firearm is sold, responsibility lies solely with the individual who has it in their possession. Once medication is prescribed, the patient cannot be held 100% accountable for their actions under mood/mind altering drugs. The physician should be directly responsible for the proper application and consumption of the medication. In the case of minors, the parents have to share that responsibility as they are the only ones who can monitor the effects of the medication and report any changes in behavior to the prescribing physician.
The fundamental breakdown in this system of responsibility lies with the medical profession's assembly line approach to patient care coupled with the decay of the basic parental obligation to pay attention to one's children. Add unattended firearms to this mixture and the likelihood of disaster becomes a statistical inevitability...
"The effects of prescription drugs and their role in these events are blatantly apparent. This issue is nothing new." Goes back a few thousand years in fact, when the first shaman told his first patient to rub some of this here magic potion in your belly button and call me in a week.
LES, I really wanted to hit the "like" button for your post, though I really do not.
Why?
Because it is real.
Because it is honest.
I really do not like to think about what these drugs are doing to some people. Even the same drug in twins may react entirely differently.
It makes me uncomfortable.
It makes me sad.
It makes me mad.
But thank you for saying it aloud, because it really needed to be.
Why?
Because it is real.
Because it is honest.
I really do not like to think about what these drugs are doing to some people. Even the same drug in twins may react entirely differently.
It makes me uncomfortable.
It makes me sad.
It makes me mad.
But thank you for saying it aloud, because it really needed to be.