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Defense Ammo

bubba in c.a. said:
Less lethal ammo is best for govmint troops trying to get unruly people to move along without killing any more than necessary. This assumes the targets are a fair distance away, because up close these things are more likely to kill or maim.
For closeup work in HD, you run into the same problems as with birdshot: you are legally using deadly force, whether you know it or not, and your chance of a one-shot stop has just gone down from almost 100% to some lower number. Do you feel lucky today?
I concede less lethal shells might be a good thing to have for some unlikely civil disturbance episode where not having any dead bodies to explain after the smoke clears would be to your advantage, but this is a real long shot for most people.

Right on reasoning. You are using deadly force - do you really want to have a "discussion" with someone you just shot- thru lawyers and DA's? If you use deadly force- just make sure there is only one story to tell!
 
ladytech point although no lady like makes a very valid point, things can happen where the BG can win in a court room setting
 
sjohnny said:
The FBI has established a testing protocol for ammunition intended to be used against people. Through their testing and research they have determined that in order for a round to be a reliably effective fight stopper it needs to penetrate at least 12" in ballistic gelatin. Buckshot is the only shot that reliably makes it to at least 12". #4 Buckshot only barely makes it and not all the time. 00 Buckshot does it reliably and with a flitecontrol wad as loaded by Federal or Hornady (Hornady calls it something else) all the pellets will be close together when they hit. #1 Buckshot appears to be ideal for defensive use but is not as readily available as 00 and isn't available in a tight patterning load.

I agree with this ... I wouldn't mind using #1 buckshot but it's availability and flitecontrol absence make the Federal 00 with FliteControl Wad an exceptional SD load. Anything that will cause adequate penetration in the human body will overpenetrate the thin walls of a home. That's what makes the need for no stray pellets so critical. Being accurate with all pellets is the #1 factor that homeowners need to insure and to achieve that you need to practice and have the right load (i.e. FliteControl Wad).

If I feel that I must pull the trigger then I've come to the conclusion during the brief moment of terror that someone is going to die (either the BG or my loved ones) and I want my weapon and ammo to do the job. It's not a tough guy statement or a decision I'd make lightly but I will defend myself and loved ones. Everyone must make their own decisions on this subject; I've made mine and I don't want anybody else to feel like my way is the only way.

Good luck to everyone on making their own decisions. Even those that have decided that having no weapons in the home is the way for them. It's what makes the world go round and round.
 
catnphx, I agree on all points! Especially the part about being accurate with all pellets, Hence my choice for the FliteControl. I've also patterned the Hornady with the same proprietary wad, (VersaTite) but it didnt do as well at longer distances. However HD/SD ranges it would be just fine though with one less pellet.

Federal 00 FliteControl low recoil all the way. Every pellet on target every time.
 
Check out this link that I found ... don't know if it's been posted here before or not. This was a demonstration that Boulder, CO did in their quest to determine how to protect buildings and the occupants in them. They tested various caliber's into various targets and the results were kinda interesting. Worth checking out ...

http://www.huts.com/Huts'sBallisticTest.htm

Pay special attention to the results table.
 
Good bit of info there, nice find!!! I havent seen this before! ;)
 
Honestly I've found different guns to react differently to the same ammunition, much like in handguns and I think it's a good idea to test out a variety of HD ammo and see what works best with your specific gun. My 500 cruiser really likes the Hornady CD 2 3/4" 00 buckshot loads. I've tested numerous shotshells and nothing cycles better than those rounds in my gun. They shoot smooth, load and eject perfectly everytime and have 1600 fps velocity for stopping power. Although they have one less pellet (8 instead of the usual 9) the high velocity and tight patterning make up for it. As of now when my gun is loaded for HD it's all Hornady CD rounds with one Winchester PDX1 for the last shot, just invade it's a bear, car or some kind of robot I'm dealing with ;)
 
m24shooter said:
Remadl700 said:
I am going to disagree with you on bird shot to a point. At the distance that home invasion gun fights take place a #8 2.75" load will most definitely stop and kill any unprotected person (Body Armor) you are engaging.
No. It might. It can. But it most certainly will not "most definitely stop and kill any unprotected person." Time and again it has been shown that it will not. There are a ton of links in this board for terminal ballistics research that has been done by professionals that cover the exact circumstances you describe and birdshot has NOT been found to be an effective round on a reliable basis.
keep this in mind a 1oz load #8 = 434 grains at 1600fps = 2400 ftlbs energy at 15 feet. A .45 acp 230 ball round at 15 feet = 430 ftlbs energy
Beyond that range the energy level decreases so much that it will not have the desired effect you are looking for. At that point you can switch over to your favorite round.
Your equation is wrong. You assume that in the 1 ounce load that the 434 grains is a homogenous, monolithic mass. In essence, you are pooling the entire weight of ALL of the several hundred projectiles into one single monolithic projectile. They are not. The are each an individual projectile that happen to be closely clustered. However, they do NOT act in total unison, and thus do not have the total energy you attribute to it. They are in fact seperate in the bore, they start to open up immediately upon exiting the muzzle, and certainly open up further once they come into contact with a target.
Your equation would be correct for a slug of that mass, but not for birdshot or buckshot. You have equated a one pound solid rock to a handful of gravel that also weighs one pound. They behave differently in both external ballistics and terminal ballistics. In this discussion, the terminal ballistics difference is what really matters.
Furthermore that energy is pretty much meaningless outside of the fact that it will allow the projos to do work. Energy by itself is not determinate of wounding mechanism in projectiles. Without the mass to maintain momentum in the dense medium of the target, the projo will not penetrate very far. There are two means to stop an aggressor without voluntary compliance: a CNS hit or exsanguination. Both require penetration and disruption. Energy alone will not do that. Birdshot is not of sufficient size to do that. Buckshot will: specifically #1B is the smallest buck that will do so.
Again, I am really concerned with the overpenetration of rounds with my kids in the house which is why I through this out there.
As long as you understand that you are chosing a round that does not penetrate well, and because of that may not penetrate sufficiently to rapidly stop an attacker. That is the obvious downside to having a round with projectiles that do no penetrate well.
I new I would get disagreements about this. I tried to make clear that this is an event that would take place at no more than 15 ft in distance and again based on the FBI reports on home evasion incidents involving a gun discharge it is less than a 10 ft average (Although this information is weak and typiclly not statistics they (DOJ and FBI) are interested in they do have it along with submitted and studied LEO reports. I will have to concede the "Will Kill" part of my description. You are correct in that I don't know that it will kill them but I have also seen and read data on Point Blank slug and 00 buckshot rounds to the head that the person "Lived" through an event for a period of time.
My point with the #6-#8 is that based on our live testing at the range and pattern spread that the individual would receive about 95% of the rounds pellets. Also the energy calculation will degrade as it disperses (We understood that but it is the best way to show you energy levels). I don’t have exact numbers as to what percent per foot the energy level drops BUT at a maximum of 15 ft the energy level is such that during our testing with poppers and plates that are designed to fall backward when hit, these targets slammed backwards instead of the gradual fall from the .45 acp. (I really wish I had energy data to give you but I don’t just our testing results) And before everyone flips a gizzard about how close we were to the steel when testing (The minimum is 30ft) we were behind cover shooting through a plexie glass window.
Your objective when facing a person who is intent on harming you or your family is to stop that action not to kill them! (OK you can let me have it if you want here) I do not want to kill anyone, just think about that before you respond. If they die as a result of the action they took and made me defend myself then it is on them again my intention was to immediately stop their action. I am not looking for a one shot solution I don’t believe it is out there when it comes to home defense.

The argument about #6-#8 won’t stop someone on meth or any other drug is the same one for 00Buck, 9mm, .45 acp and even a .223. If you train to stop shooting after one shot than who ever trained you is lacking basic skill sets. You shoot and continue to shoot until the person is complying or has stop moving. There are some legal issues here you really need to consider. I suggest you (In general - not directed at m24shooter)get some training on real world scenarios that typically come with a defensive training seminar. Just do some background checks on exactly what the class covers.
 
catnphx said:
Check out this link that I found ... don't know if it's been posted here before or not. This was a demonstration that Boulder, CO did in their quest to determine how to protect buildings and the occupants in them. They tested various caliber's into various targets and the results were kinda interesting. Worth checking out ...

http://www.huts.com/Huts'sBallisticTest.htm

Pay special attention to the results table.

This is fantastic!!!!

This is a much more indepth demonstration of what we did at our club for our classes. I will be "Borrowing" some of these pictures for our classes.

Thanks for the link.
 
Remadl700 said:
I new I would get disagreements about this. I tried to make clear that this is an event that would take place at no more than 15 ft in distance and again based on the FBI reports on home evasion incidents involving a gun discharge it is less than a 10 ft average (Although this information is weak and typiclly not statistics they (DOJ and FBI) are interested in they do have it along with submitted and studied LEO reports. I will have to concede the "Will Kill" part of my description. You are correct in that I don't know that it will kill them but I have also seen and read data on Point Blank slug and 00 buckshot rounds to the head that the person "Lived" through an event for a period of time.
I'm not saying that there is any kind of one-shot death ray instant smitation machine. ANYTHING short of a 40mm gun may leave someone alive/concscious/capable. However, you can limit that chance by load choice. The probability of not stopping someone with buckshot is much lower than the probability with birdshot.
To put any belief of one shot stops to rest, the citations for military and law enforcement decorations are positively filled with accounts of people that had mortal wounds and in some cases many mortal wounds but completed their mission/fought on/ended a fight only to die later. I was told by a turd long ago "I can run faster and fight harder scared than you can pissed." Assuming one shot stops or playing odds on that happening isn't sound when you consider the stakes.
My point with the #6-#8 is that based on our live testing at the range and pattern spread that the individual would receive about 95% of the rounds pellets.
Not debating that at all. The problem is you have a lot of very small projectiles with a poor ballistic shape that lose velocity very quickly due to that shape and low mass.
Also the energy calculation will degrade as it disperses (We understood that but it is the best way to show you energy levels). I don’t have exact numbers as to what percent per foot the energy level drops BUT at a maximum of 15 ft the energy level is such that during our testing with poppers and plates that are designed to fall backward when hit, these targets slammed backwards instead of the gradual fall from the .45 acp. (I really wish I had energy data to give you but I don’t just our testing results)
That's fine, but as I said energy is not the paragon of wounding mechanism. Knocking down plates/poppers is not the same as penetrating a human body deeply enough to disrupt large vessels or stopping the CNS. Short of that and you're relying on pain compliance or voluntary cessation. Stopping an attack may need more than that.
Your objective when facing a person who is intent on harming you or your family is to stop that action not to kill them! (OK you can let me have it if you want here)
Why would I let you have it? I've never indicated otherwise. My post used "stop" and discussed effectiveness, you brought up killing.
I do not want to kill anyone, just think about that before you respond. If they die as a result of the action they took and made me defend myself then it is on them again my intention was to immediately stop their action. I am not looking for a one shot solution I don’t believe it is out there when it comes to home defense.
I'm not opposed to this. I've made very similar statements.
The argument about #6-#8 won’t stop someone on meth or any other drug is the same one for 00Buck, 9mm, .45 acp and even a .223. If you train to stop shooting after one shot than who ever trained you is lacking basic skill sets. You shoot and continue to shoot until the person is complying or has stop moving.
Again, not going to get a lot of argument from me, other than to modify your statement to read "stop being a threat" as opposed to "stop moving."
There are some legal issues here you really need to consider. I suggest you (In general - not directed at m24shooter)get some training on real world scenarios that typically come with a defensive training seminar. Just do some background checks on exactly what the class covers.
No disagreement there either.
 
Have you personally tested bird shot rounds as described in my post? Just curious. My conclusions come from our testing. This is not a poke or jab at you just so you understand, I am genuinely curious. We do a lot of scenario testing with our students because they question our reasons sometimes it is just much easier to show them. "My fridge will stop any handgun cartridge" just because it's Sub Zero doesn't mean it will stop a .357. So we show them the entry and the exit hole along with the penetration into the wall. It gets their attention quickly.

Stop being a threat, stop moving.................point taken ...I should have worded that different.

The issue of "Shoot to kill" comes up in range training and class room discussions .... I tend to reply to the overall input on the subject instead of the or your wording and to that you were correct.

"That's fine, but as I said energy is not the paragon of wounding mechanism. Knocking down plates/poppers is not the same as penetrating a human body deeply enough to disrupt large vessels or stopping the CNS. Short of that and you're relying on pain compliance or voluntary cessation. Stopping an attack may need more than that."

I guess we are just going to disagree on this, no problem. As stated before I base my conclusions on our live fire training. We have access to a kinetic energy testing system from a company that does impact tests on simulated human bodies and vehicles. I have talked with them about how to use the equipment to answer your statement above without destroying it at the same time. If we can get this facilitated I will post our findings.
 
As far as personally testing birdshot on steel poppers to determine wounding potential no. Shooting steel with it yes. But again shooting steel, plywood, Sheetrock, appliances, melons, or cans has little to no correlation to determining the wounding capability and effectiveness.
I have however seen the results of it in shootings. Several times. It doesn't always work. I haven't felt the need to test it because I have seen it be ineffective and the tests that I do follow have never indicated that it should be used for duty or defensive purposes.
I am not aware of a single law enforcement agency that uses birdshot for normal use. That is another test that I would say is worth paying attention to.
Drs. Roberts and Fackler do my testing. I also follow the testing of the FBI and some others that get paid to do that sort of thing using peer reviewed and published methods. These are also correlated with and supplemented by actual post mortems.
 
Before anybody can really talk about defensive ammunition, some basics need to be laid down. Knowledge (and acceptance) of some basic information and facts will dispell a lot of myths. It will avoid circle talk about what birdshot does to sheetrock, oil drums, or whatever. It doesn't matter what it does to those items: nobody who is paid to study terminal ballistics uses them or anything like them as determination of anything beyond patterning. Patterning is only a small part of terminal ballistics.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
While this is a paper on the wounding effects of handgun projos, there is some good basic info that translates to any projectile wound. The goals are the same: only the means of delivering the projo are different. In modern ballistics and projectile technology, shotgun projos (in terms of buck and birdshot) are actually in some ways similar in that they are not high velocity rounds, such as from a carbine or rifle. Buck and birdshot are actually in many ways poorer penetrators than pistol rounds due to their shape, construction, and velocity.
Pay particular attention to the purpose of shooting an attacker, the definition of immediate incapacitation, the mechanics of projectile wounds (which do not include a central focus on energy), the fact that kinetic energy does not wound, the myth of knockdown power, the myth of temporary cavitation or stretch cavity, the human target and physiology, the ability to remain a threat even after the heart has been destroyed, the need for deep penetration in order to immediately incapacitate, ammunition selection criteria, the importance of mass in penetration, the dangers of shallow penetration, the predispostition to fall down, disparaging of laboratory methods, and what lab tests and scientific research in the field of terminal ballistics actually does.
Finally, if you want to seriously look at the field of terminal ballistics and see what real tests look like, the sources in this paper would be a very good start.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... 7&t=109958
This is a thread on ballistics gel tests for shotgun rounds. Keep in mind that the gel in these tests was improperly prepared, and will OVER represent the penetration of the pellets by a factor of between 10-25% depending on the block in question. Please note that even with that in place, NO birdshot pellet reaches the minimum 12" of penetration. None.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Here's a post on defensive shotgun ammunition. Keep in mind that it is from 1998, and some of the info is dated. Some of the rounds are not available, and a lot of technology has improved since the time this was written. However, a lot of the info in the article as to basic facts remains true. From that source:
Firearmstactical.com said:
Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... ght=docgkr
Some info on barrier penetration and various firearms projectiles.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56486
DocGKR said:
Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714
Some info on basic wound ballistics.
DocGKR said:
The last 25 years of modern wound ballistic research has demonstrated yet again what historical reports have always indicated--that there are only two valid methods of incapacitation: one based on psychological factors and the other physiological damage. People are often rapidly psychologically incapacitated by minor wounds that are not immediately physiologically incapacitating. Psychological factors are also the reason people can receive severe, even non-survivable wounds and continue functioning for short periods of time. Up to fifty percent of those individuals rapidly incapacitated by bullet wounds are probably incapacitated for psychological rather than physiological reasons. Psychological incapacitation is an extremely erratic, highly variable, and completely unpredictable human response, independent of any inherent characteristics of a particular projectile.
DocGKR said:
Absent CNS damage, circulatory system collapse from severe disruption of the vital organs and blood vessels in the torso is the only other reliable method of physiological incapacitation from small arms.
Of particular note:
Dr Newguard via DocGKR said:
“A 70 kg male has a cardiac output of around 5.5 liters per minute. His blood volume is about 4200 cc. Assuming that his cardiac output can double under stress, his aortic blood flow can reach 11 Liters per minute. If this male had his thoracic aorta totally severed, it would take him 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his total blood volume. This is the minimum amount of time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. A marginally trained person can fire at a rate of two shots per second. In 4.6 seconds there could easily be 9 shots of return fire before the assailant’s activity is neutralized. Note this analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perusing the brain that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.”
Keep in mind this is a complete severing of the thoracic aorta. On a small, thin target standing perfectly squared with no intervening structures this will require at least 7" of penetration. Birdshot doesn't do this.
 
m24shooter said:
As far as personally testing birdshot on steel poppers to determine wounding potential no. Shooting steel with it yes. But again shooting steel, plywood, Sheetrock, appliances, melons, or cans has little to no correlation to determining the wounding capability and effectiveness.
I have however seen the results of it in shootings. Several times. It doesn't always work. I haven't felt the need to test it because I have seen it be ineffective and the tests that I do follow have never indicated that it should be used for duty or defensive purposes.
I am not aware of a single law enforcement agency that uses birdshot for normal use. That is another test that I would say is worth paying attention to.

Two completely different issues. LEO's ammo requirements are to handle a wide range of situations. Breaching, vehicle terminations, barriers ...................It is a personal choice to use the ammo I do. We do not tell the students what to use. We let them decide what they want to carry for ammo. We show how the ammo performs in those situations along with the Pros and Cons of using the different types of ammo and I have tested the ammo in my 870 18 inch and the 590 20 inch in Shoot houses and terminal performance. I am confident in that knowledge. We can continue to bang away at the key boards until our fingers bleed. I have made it clear that I have two major issues while shooting inside the house. First - stopping the action of the invader. Second - over penetration of the rounds fired. So much more that can be discussed........SO..........I appreciate the conversation

DocGKR wrote:
Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration.

Excellent point! Learn to shot and practice! I am not willing to risk the chance of accidentally striking a family member. Although you can't guarantee it would never happen I am doing my best to mitigate the problem and except the trade off of birdshot at the discussed distances. I absolutely know it performs! Now, I do carry extra ammo on the gun including 00 and slugs if needed and train to use these rounds. They just are not MY first choice. Once we step out the door of the house we can have a whole other conversation and it's why there is another shotgun in the truck loaded completely different. :) should we talk about what I carry in my truck.
 
Whether LE or private citizen the goal is the same: to stop an attack as quickly as possible. DocGKR and the others in the information I provided make no distinction between the two and in fact recommend the same ammunition for both defensive and duty use.
Whether you are a homeowner or an officer there are only two ways to quickly stop an attacker who does not want to quit. Birdshot does not have the capability to do that reliably. Kinetic energy does not have a direct correlation to wounding mechanisms in projectiles. It is the capability to do work obviously but not in the way you are thinking.
If you want to use it that's fine. I'm glad you leave choice open to your students.
 
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