Does a slug kinda defeat the purpose of an HD shotgun?

[Tom396]

Been noticing the serious HD slug ammo currently available. Can't help but think: Yep, that's great if you happen to hit center mass with it.

Aren't some of the advantages of a HD shotgun negated by loading slugs? How is a slug, in a shotgun, a much better choice for HD than a large caliber handgun? I like the idea of several projectiles, because I'm figuring that I'm probably gonna miss with some of them. And furthermore, the ones that do hit are likely to be less than perfectly placed. Your thoughts? Take care. Tom Worthington.

 

[oli700]

ever wonder where the ones that miss end up going ?

 

[toyracer38]

Got to agree with Tom here. I imagine adrenaline would be pumping, I may be retreating and firing behind me. Hope I never have to live this scenario, but my HD SG is loaded up with buck just in case. Never having been in a situation where I have had to shoot, I feel that I have no idea what my state of mind would be if I did have to shoot. Would I be able to stand steady and aim??? I don't know. I feel in my case anyways, I may be better off spraying and praying! What if the slug misses? Where does it end up?

 

[nitesite]

Tagged so I can continue following this thread.

Good question, Tom.

 

[LAZY EYED SNIPER]

Consider the likely engagement distance in a home defense situation. Inside a home, will there be sufficient distance from muzzle to target impact for most types of shot to spread? Granted the margin for error may be less when using slugs, but shot placement is crucial no matter what type of ammo you're using.

The major advantage of using shot is that individual pellets will lose energy much faster than a .70 caliber slug and the likelyhood of overpenetration through your intended target or say your bedroom walls is greatly decreased. Selection of HD ammo should be subjective to your particular needs based on your surroundings.

 

[MikeD]

Good question. At the longest possible distence I could engage someone in my home buckshot is not going to offer any real advantage. And if I do miss or overpenetrate my target, that's multiple pellets that are going to spread and do damage which greatly increases the possibility of hitting an unintended target.

Don't fall for the common misconception that a shot gun doesn't need to be aimed. At the 0-15 feet I may shoot in my house, if I am missing with a slug, I'm also likely missing with buckshot.

Knowing that the neighbots accross the street have picture windows that face mine and that most of the master beadrooms in my sub are at the front of the house makes me overly cautious. The neighbors on either side of me, the directions I'm least likely to have to shoot are both brick, go figure.

In my parents sub almost all of the houses are brick and have the bedrooms on the 2nd story. In their house I would be more comfortable using buck because of the layout of the house and the reduced risk of penetrating the brick exterior or their house or the brick exterior of the neighbors.

Ultimately you have to look at your own situation, weigh the pros and cons of each as they apply to your situation and choose the ratio of safety vs. risk that you are comforable with.

Edit:
I'll also add that I don't think using slugs negates the useage of a shotgun over a handgun. I think most people can shoot them more accurately than a handgun in high stress situations. I grew up with a long gun in my hands but have really only taken handguns seriously for a the last 10 years or so. And have really sought out training in the last 5. I consider myself pretty proficient in either but am still more comfortable with a shotgun in may hands.

You also can't discount the fact that a 12g slug is a heck of a lot bugger and heavier than a 9mm or even a 44 caliber bullet from a handgun. It's going to do some damage to whatever it hits

Lastly, and the thing that I put the least amount of confidence in but is made popular by the movies is the intimidation factor of a shotgun. Heck the mere sight of it will deter crime by 99.9%. Well maybe the AA12. LOL :-D

 

[LAZY EYED SNIPER]

Well put Mike,

The best advice I can give on the subject would be to measure the longest likely engagrment distance within your home. Practice patterning different loads from your maximum distance all the way in to as close as you can get and still be at a safe shooting distance. By testing multiple loads at various distances you'll begin to see differences in your shot pattern that will plainly illustrate what we're talking about. You'd be amazed how tight buckshot can pattern at 15 feet. A few of our members, including our very own Mr. Rossignol, have done some extensive pattern testing and have posted up the results in our ammo section (some with video). Take a moment to browse through and you'll find tons of useful information relevant to this discussion.

Bottom line is that you are responsible for every projectile that leaves your firearm. You can never truly prepare yourself for a break-in or home invasion but becoming proficient with your weapon of choice is the key to safety, both for you and others that may inadvertently be in the line of fire.

 

[oli700]

Aren't some of the advantages of a HD shotgun negated by loading slugs?

Really situation dependant. Like with anything there are trade off’s. Both have advantages and disadvantages so I make sure I have access to slugs and buck. By limiting yourself to one choice you must then ask yourself “Aren’t some of the advantages of using a shotgun for HD limited if I only plan to use and train with one load?”.

How is a slug, in a shotgun, a much better choice for HD than a large caliber handgun?

Go price a Smith & Wesson 500. That is about equivalent to a 12 gauge slug, Shotgun is much cheaper, ammo is much cheaper, and a anyone that’s needs to is more likely to be able to control a shotgun…….Mobility goes to the handgun , most handguns pale in the power next to a full load 12 gauge shell.

I like the idea of several projectiles, because I'm figuring that I'm probably gonna miss with some of them. And furthermore, the ones that do hit are likely to be less than perfectly placed

Ok Tom this is where your question(s) get a little sketchy for me. If you miss where are they going? The popular term is that every pellet has a lawyer attached to it. If you are going to seriously enter the world of firearms to defend yourself than you must strive for perfect marksmanship.

You should try to pattern you shotgun and settle for ammo that patterns about fist size at your HD distances. The idea of shooting someone that means harm to you and your loved ones is serious.
For me, I plan to stop the fight with extreme prejudice and that means landing every pellet, or slug on target , more specific the head or center of chest. It also includes accountability of any projectiles that exit my muzzle. Don’t plan on missing, that is a ridicules approach. You don’t start a game with the intention of loosing.

One of the advantages of 00 buck is multiple wound tracks….how can you take advantage of that if you go in planning to miss with half your pellets and the other ones not placed perfectly? With that mentality I hope you are solid on your reloads.
People talk about shooting walls and penetration or over penetration. For me, if it doesn’t have enough poop to go through a wall than it might not have enough power to reliably kill….

 

[megawatt]

I think a slug is a much better option than a rifle shooting a centerfire cartridge. There is a huge trend nowadays for people considering and using a AR-15 for home defense. I completely disagree with using a rifle inside a home but if someone was set on using a long arm then I think a slug from a shotgun is a better suited. So for this type of comparison I would say a slug does not defeat the purpose of a HD shotgun.

 

[MikeD]

I think a slug is a much better option than a rifle shooting a centerfire cartridge. There is a huge trend nowadays for people considering and using a AR-15 for home defense. I completely disagree with using a rifle inside a home but if someone was set on using a long arm then I think a slug from a shotgun is a better suited. So for this type of comparison I would say a slug does not defeat the purpose of a HD shotgun.

I've seen this as well.

I actually kind of like the concept of an AR for HD. It has low recoil, high capacity, and bullets that fragment easily due to the light weight and high velocity. I would not advocate using higher powered rifles due to extreme over penetration. For example, I would never use my 30-06 unless I was backed into a corner and it was the only choice.

But once again, let the mission drive the gear. The layout and structure of ones house, number and location of occupants, proximity of neightbors, etc. would dictate whether it is a viable solution for the home/homeowner in question.

 

[Rossignol]

Ok, admittedly I havent read everything here yet, but I dont know how much longer i'll be awake...

I wanna address one of the same things Oli has already. Stray pellets. I agree with Oi, strive for perfection. I do the videos I do in part to show that 00 buck can be accurate and must be patterned at ranges you are likely to have to use it. I know this isnt part of your original question, but strays are unacceptable to me. Every pellet on target. If I ever need to use my firearm against a threat, I'll be dealin with nerves, I dont wanna be dealin with worryin about stray pellets. Its not even an option.

There are actually several threads dealin with a number of different loads in the ammo section... Lots of pics and video.

Oli makes several very good points. 00 buck is a very good load for HD and can be managed easily enough... try different loads till you find one that patterns as Oli mentioned in about a fist sized group, at your ranges you may enounter. Each one of those .30 cal pellets creates a wound tract and temporary cavity and I'll reiterate here; Anything that will reliably stop a threat, will also penetrate interior walls.

... Tired ... I promise, I'll read the rest too.

 

[John A.]

This may seem like it is way out in left field to some, but give me a minute to explain.

I'm not entirely against using a slug or buckshot, or even a shotgun in general inside of a house, but I seriously wonder how many have fired a shotgun indoors. If you think it's loud outside, shooting it in a 14x20 room (example), you're not only going to definately hear it, but you will feel the concussion as well and without a doubt will damage your hearing.

There are so many things to consider and it would be difficult to be able to give the right answer because there are just too many variables.

As I said before, I'm not against using a shotgun, but indoors, I am a bigger fan of using a good suppressed pistol round and subsonic bullet. Whether it's 147 gr or heavier 9mm or any size 45 ACP or 180 gr or heavier 40 S&W, or any size 38 special

When I say subsonic pistol round, that's literally what I mean, pistol round. Whether it's delivered from a pistol or shoulder mounted carbine, makes no difference to me. They can be fired from either.

 

[oli700]

I'm not entirely against using a slug or buckshot, or even a shotgun in general inside of a house, but I seriously wonder how many have fired a shotgun indoors. If you think it's loud outside, shooting it in a 14x20 room (example), you're not only going to definately hear it, but you will feel the concussion as well and without a doubt will damage your hearing.

I understand you don’t even notice much about the noise when your life is on the line. I shoot some loud guns and dont recal any noise when shooting an animal so I can see the theory being true

 

[Rossignol]

I understand you don’t even notice much about the noise when your life is on the line. I shoot some loud guns and dont recal any noise when shooting an animal so I can see the theory being true

When we're target shooting, it seems loud. Without ears on, its down right annoying and can be a pain, almost literally.

When we hunt, I dont even notice, though granted we're outside and concusion isnt an issues at all. Allison has fired over me and there has been no affect.

I've also spoken with some law enforcement, (discussing ammunition design and terminal ballistic theories) and the subject of auditory exclusion came up. His professional experience finds in adrenaline filled moments some degree of noise is is completely filtered out.

Like Oli, I have only hunting experience to go by.

 

[oli700]

When we're target shooting, it seems loud. Without ears on, its down right annoying and can be a pain, almost literally.

Especially after I got the porting lol. Most of my range shooting is from a building with a wall removed and some stalls put in. so it without a doubt intensifies the sound by a lot. I have to admit when I have good ears on I love the percussion of a high power rifle.

 

[Tom396]

If I could count on perfection, under duress, I'd have a .22 caliber single shot for HD. You know, just for the challenge of getting a hit directly in the tear duct...every time. Take care. Tom Worthington.

 

[oli700]

Just because you think something is not obtainable, is that a good reason not to try to obtain it?
I know I’m not perfect but I damn well try for it every time, I guess I don’t do anything without the intention of doing it very well. If you’re happy with less that’s cool too

 

[m24shooter]

In typical defensive/duty shooting ranges, the spread of the shot is NOT going to compensate for bad aim. Even if it did, if your pattern is largely missing the target then you are likely only getting a peripheral hit anyway. Not optimum.
Furthermore, with a typical 00 load, you're only talking about 8 or 9 pellets total. Those projos have a poor ballistic shape, and don't have a lot of mass to them. So if you only get a fraction of your pattern on the target your already limited production is going to be further hindered by fewer projos on the target.
I want ALL the pellets on/in the target. Spray and pray as it were is a bad, bad idea for defensive or duty use. I want all of the available projos to be doing their job, especially because it is hard enough for them already.
The effective part of a shot load is that you have multiple wound tracks radiating outwards at a typically more divergent alignment after the pattern has hit the target. Obviously there is spread during the exterior ballistic phase, but in terminal ballistics there is more so usually. That allows for more structures to be impacted, which is what you would look for in terms of rapid exsanguination.
In external ballistics, I want them close. In terminal ballistics, I want them opening up.

I think a slug is a much better option than a rifle shooting a centerfire cartridge.

Why?

There is a huge trend nowadays for people considering and using a AR-15 for home defense.

With very good reason.

I completely disagree with using a rifle inside a home

Again, why?

but if someone was set on using a long arm then I think a slug from a shotgun is a better suited.

I don't. Not to say that a slug isn't perfectly effective, or a bad idea. But if you're wanting one accurate projo (which is a large part of why you would use a slug, the other being mass) then a rifle will do much better in that role.

So for this type of comparison I would say a slug does not defeat the purpose of a HD shotgun.

I would agree with that. A slug can do quite well in close where accuracy matters or where you need to put a metric asston of lead on target at one time in one place.
However, there are some serious limitations to using a slug for defensive and duty use that have not been mentioned/considered here.

 

[oli700]

However, there are some serious limitations to using a slug for defensive and duty use that have not been mentioned/considered here.

I'm interested , if you want to expand on that

 

[bubba in c.a.]

A carbine firing ,223 is a great option for home defense. Cost and training are the bugaboo for the average person. The smaller size projectiles of .223 often overpenetrate less than many common handgun and buckshot loads.
Back to shotguns: they are cheap, reliable, and comparatively simple. Buckshot will work great at short distances, as will slugs. Hard slugs will tent to overpenetrate, so buy the soft ones!
At room distances, and with all the variables of shooting something as complex as a human body, shot placement and a quick second shot are much more important than a lot of the other details.