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Mossberg 500 vs AR for SHTF!

Elucase said:
So if you have absolutely zero trapping experience, how do you learn?
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A good way to start is to talk to your local Fish and Game dept. They'll tell you the rules/laws that pertain but also can help you learn how. And of course there is the web and tons of books & magazines. Best way is to find someone who will tutor you. Really not much to it, except knowing how to spot game trails and hangouts for what you are trying to trap, what they like to eat, when they are around and so on. Animals are creatures of habit, so you can take advantage of that. For example; coons love corn, especially with a little sorghum molasses on it, are normally nocturnal, do hibernate briefly in some areas, and live near water. A live trap works well for them. I caught 3 in 3 days this past winter with one trap in my woods.

Deer can be trapped with bait. Just put up 1 side of a tall fence corral (about 20' long) they can't jump, put some corn or feed out on one side of it. You can use the plastic/nylon mesh at the local homie that people use to keep deer out of their garden. Keep an eye on it and keep putting feed out for about 4 or 5 days after they find it to keep them coming back. 50lbs should suffice for the entire exercise. Put out a bucket full and refill as needed. Then erect another fence side and repeat. And a 3rd and finally a side with a gate. Rig a long rope on the gate and when they (probably a half dozen or so by now) go in for their regular feed, just close the gate. Keep feeding them and harvest them as needed. You might even get a buck and now you've got your own renewable resource. Simple, huh? And a lot easier than tromping thru the woods making a lot of racket. It's illegal of course, but we're not concerned with legality (or sportsmanship) in this thread are we? :)
 
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LAZY EYED SNIPER said:
Absolutely.
The thread seems focused on defense, but what about hunting? Let's use the scenario laid out so far. You're living on the go, having to worry about fighting off other people, and apparently carrying everything you own in a pack or even on a sled with no base camp. In this situation stalking big game will likely mean covering a lot of ground and into areas where, because you're being led by an animal, you will likely not have had time to plan an exit strategy ahead of time. You will not be able to carry all of your gear as you stalk, so this means leaving it behind in a hide of some sort. The more ground you cover, the more likely it will be for you to unintentionally cross paths with others intending to do you harm. This could land you in a defensive situation without the 100 -200 extra rounds of ammo you packed. Separated from your gear, your supplies are exposed and ripe for picking by anyone who comes along.
Even if you don't run into any bad guys and are able to take a deer, now you have added a significant amount of weight in meat to your already heavy load. Now that you have all this meat, how do you preserve it? In my mind, small game will be far more abundant and will require much less effort to take. Taking squirrel, rabbits, birds, etc. will keep you well fed without the added burden of packing or trying to preserve several extra pounds of meat. Not sure if anyone's ever shot small game with a .223 or with 00 buck but those who have, was there much left of the animal to eat? What about the sound signature? How far away can these shots be heard? To a would-be attacker, this could be like ringing a dinner bell. Parks service studies have shown that even bears and other predators have learned to follow the sound of gunshots to find a free meal.
In my mind, this is where a .22lr rifle shines in a survival situation. The number of rounds you can carry is hard to beat. It'll keep you fed without destroying your quarry and it's relatively quiet when compared to the report of a .223/556 rifle or 12ga shotgun. Contrary to the opinions of many, a .22lr rifle will serve as a suitable defensive weapon in a pinch. Is .22lr as suited for mounting a defense against multiple armed attackers as an AR-15 or a 12ga shotgun? Of course not. But let's be honest, no matter what caliber firearm you're packing, if you're alone in that situation to begin with then you're already screwed. Outside of hollywood, what are the odds of anyone realistically running into this defensive scenario? I would much rather focus on the means of staying alive when I don't have to fight off groups of armed bandits...
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@LAZY EYED SNIPER I was thinking about that scenario, and it's come up in other threads as well. I think the answer could be a .22 conversion bolt. Allows for both .22 and .223 switch out, it's fast, relatively accurate with the same sights out to 50m, and with a .223 sized can, is deadly quiet. That expands the tricks coming out of an AR, as well as the ammo you can use/trade for. Obviously you want a conversion that you know is reliable in your gun and you've tested, but for weight ratio, I think it's probably hard to beat a bolt, a couple of mags and a pocketful of .22 to switch out in a minute with the AR bolt. Just a thought.

Trapping, snaring and fishing are all critical skills to add to the repertoire. Knowing how to snare small game, catch fish and create animal specific traps goes a long way towards preserving valuable ammo and maintaining a low signature. Or just good survival skills if you get stranded somewhere.

I've been fascinated with this topic ever since I was a kid and read "Hatchet" by Gary Paulsen and thought about the things that the kid in the story had to do with just a simple hatchet. Makes me wonder if I could do half of those things that are fairly realistically described in the story.
 
LAZY EYED SNIPER said:
^ DO NOT watch Wylie Coyote cartoons.

Dude had it all wrong. ACME made a fortune off him though...
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In reality a Coyote is twice as fast as a Roadrunner! Wile E Coyote should be able to catch the Roadrunner in a race. A roadrunner can only reach speeds of 20 miles per hour, while a coyote reaches speeds up to 43 miles per hour.

Your mind is now blown. You're welcome.
 
hatchet was a good book, i read a lot of Gary Paulson as a kid. only one way to find out though. go out an try it. i plan to do a LOT more camping this summer. and plan to practice some survival techniques. i would have been out practicing already, ive got no reserves against winter camping, i really enjoy it. but she wants to camp with me. an i dont think she would be to fond of below freezing temps.
 
Elucase said:
In reality a Coyote is twice as fast as a Roadrunner! Wile E Coyote should be able to catch the Roadrunner in a race. A roadrunner can only reach speeds of 20 miles per hour, while a coyote reaches speeds up to 43 miles per hour.

Your mind is now blown. You're welcome.
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I guess 'ol Wile E must have come from the shallow end of the gene pool. He couldn't stop get'n his @$$ kicked...
 
dieselmudder said:
hatchet was a good book, i read a lot of Gary Paulson as a kid. only one way to find out though. go out an try it. i plan to do a LOT more camping this summer. and plan to practice some survival techniques. i would have been out practicing already, ive got no reserves against winter camping, i really enjoy it. but she wants to camp with me. an i dont think she would be to fond of below freezing temps.
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I have this recurring daydream of heading out deep into the woods with nothing but what is on my back and living for a month. I think it sounds adventurous, but you can also get yourself in quite a pickle doing that.
 
Wasn't there a kid who went to Alaska and did that? Didn't work out to well for him. They made a movie about it.
 
The kid who camped in the school bus. Got sick and couldn't forage for food. Didn't like going out in the cold and died! It is not a place for those without knowledge of the outdoors and some kind of idea as to how they are going to survive!!
 
One of the few nice things about living in NJ is that the deer don't have space to roam around. So you don't have to go to them, they tend to come to you. I've gotten within 20ft of them walking the dog in the woods, and often come out my front door at night only to see a couple staring back at me from a few paces away before they spooked and ran. I've noticed when traveling a few hours west into PA I dont see anywhere near as many road kill because the wildlife has space to stay away from the roads.
 
Here is a perfect "Escape from NY" or "survivalist" vehicle. ;) Note the attention to detail. I've posted a pdf in case the link goes away. LINK

I don't know how high the walls of your deer pen would have to be, because I've seen plenty of deer easily scale a 6' fence while on the run...

Note that using a .22LR conversion bolt for an AR may not yield the best accuracy due to the 1:9 or lower rifling of the .223/5.56 barrel "overspinning" the .22 which prefers 1:16 twist.

I've heard the saying "my pistol is used for fighting my way to my rifle...". Yes, the AR would be overkill for small game but it is certainly more accurate out to greater distances than a shotty could be. The AR with a "penetrator" round also has a better ability to disable a vehicle engine. This would be a tough choice: in an urban setting, the shotgun would be better, more rural the AR gets the nod...

PS: regarding if the SHTF, no one is going to care (of have the ability to do anything about it) if you have sawed off barrels or uberhoch capacity mags. "Assault" weapons will be the gun of choice for close-quarters combat/defense and culling/looting via "raiding parties" of those who had a nobama yard sign the last election... :cool:
 

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[quote="
PS: regarding if the SHTF, no one is going to care (of have the ability to do anything about it) if you have sawed off barrels or uberhoch capacity mags. "Assault" weapons will be the gun of choice for close-quarters combat/defense and culling/looting via "raiding parties" of those who had a nobama yard sign the last election... :cool:[/quote]

I certainly don't disagree with this sentiment but for many of us the trouble is obtaining high cap mags and such items before SHTF.

If I were to get caught with the above mentioned items before a SHTF situation I would lose my right to own any firearms at all. SHTF may never happen...but there's always prowlers in the neighborhood and deer to be taken between now and then!

I'll stick with the legal arms and accessories I can obtain. Though I wish I lived somewhere without so many restrictions!:(
 
These questions are always good for entertaining conversation and can be thought provoking, but if I only get out with one firearm something has already gone horribly wrong.

If the world went sideways tonight, how many who have posted in this thread would be ready to go at the drop of a hat? Is your gear packed up right now and ready to grab? Is everyone in the house on board with the plan and know their role? What about while you were at work or somewhere away from home today? In this case you may very well find yourself cut off from your home and supplies in a situation where you only have one firearm, an extra mag or two, and the clothes on your back. Do you have a "plan B" for that scenario? Just something else to think about if you haven't already...
 
LAZY EYED SNIPER said:
These questions are always good for entertaining conversation and can be thought provoking, but if I only get out with one firearm something has already gone horribly wrong.

If the world went sideways tonight, how many who have posted in this thread would be ready to go at the drop of a hat? Is your gear packed up right now and ready to grab? Is everyone in the house on board with the plan and know their role? What about while you were at work or somewhere away from home today? In this case you may very well find yourself cut off from your home and supplies in a situation where you only have one firearm, an extra mag or two, and the clothes on your back. Do you have a "plan B" for that scenario? Just something else to think about if you haven't already...
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If I'm caught away from home, and can't get back, I'm screwed. I'll probably try and adapt, improvise, etc., for awhile, but I'm still screwed. Yeah, I've thought about it. Take care. Tom Worthington
 
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