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Question Of The Month. (March 2017)

Discussion in 'Question of the Month' started by ripjack13, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. ripjack13

    ripjack13 Resident Sawdust Maker Staff Member Administrator Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    14,201
    Howdy,
    This is a monthly series of questions topic for everyone to join in on the discussion. Some of the later questions may have a poll, and some will not. Don't be shy now, go ahead and post an answer and vote in the polls...

    Should Legal Aliens Be Allowed to Carry?












    **Rules**
    There is no minimum post requirement. :D
    carbinemike and SHOOTER13 like this.
  2. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 Guest

    NO...

    If they are NOT American Citizens ( hence the word alien )...they are NOT afforded the same rights as such under the 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution.

    Period.
  3. Daryll

    Daryll .270 WIN Supporter

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    Interesting question, but maybe needs some definition...??

    By "legal aliens" do you mean people under green cards, or work permits, or just visitors...??

    I have thought about having a hiking/camping holiday in the Appalachians, but decided that I'd want to have some type of protection against 2 and 4 legged vermin.
    However, even as a regular visitor to the US, and a firearm owner here in the UK, and even if i was willing to attend a safety course, I wouldn't be allowed to carry.



    Edit: Shooter13 gave the answer while i was typing this....
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  4. carbinemike

    carbinemike Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator "Philanthropist"

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    No and I'll go further and say they should be prohibited from buying guns too.
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  5. ripjack13

    ripjack13 Resident Sawdust Maker Staff Member Administrator Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    any body in the USA holding a valid visa who entered US legally....
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  6. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 Guest

    Amen Mike...!!
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  7. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Forum Moderator Supporter

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    Interesting take on this.

    Are they not afforded due process, exempt from unreasonable searches and seizures, exempt from cruel and unusual punishment?

    We are talking about legal persons who went through the process of application, vetting, and waiting before entering.

    Just curious as to what point people who are following the rules are allowed to exercise their natural right to self defense?

    I'm mixed but leaning towards allowed to carry.
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  8. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

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    5,870
    Are they licensed to carry at home?
    Then I don't have a problem.

    Otherwise no.
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  9. Pawpaw

    Pawpaw .30-06 Supporter

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    I have no problem whatsoever with legal resident aliens being allowed to carry.

    I have a good friend that fits that description. He has seen action in South Africa and was a contractor for the US in the sandbox. He loves this country dearly and is not shy about showing the undying respect he has for our service members. He was about to complete the citizenship process when life backhanded him. He'll get there one day.

    In the meantime, he has his Texas License to Carry and there is no one I would rather have covering my six.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
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  10. OhioArcher

    OhioArcher Where's da fishes? Forum Moderator Supporter "Philanthropist"

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    Well, I've been pondering this question, and some of the replies, and I think I may now be able to put something to paper.

    My initial reaction was that of Shooter. If you're not a citizen then you are not afforded the rights under the Constitution. But I couldn't justify that response across the board. Looking at it from purely a legal standpoint, whether or not a person in the US is an American citizen is not a determining factor in whether they are afforded protections under our Constitution. Many aliens, legal and illegal, ARE afforded Constitutional protections (by the courts) and I don't believe that we can pick and choose which ones they can have or have not. How do they have the rights afforded under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th Amendments but not the 2nd? Personally, I think that you should be an US citizen to be able to wrap the Constitution and all the Amendments around you but fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) this not the United States of OA.

    I have known many legal aliens who served our country alongside me in the military and they deserved every bit of what the 2nd Amendment offers. I can not say that they were good enough to defend our country but not good enough to defend themselves or family. I doubt anyone on this site could in all good conscious say that. So, at what point do you draw a line and say those on this side of the line can, those on that side can't?

    There are many more legal aliens here who wish nothing more than to drink from the fountain that is America. They live and breathe the US as we do and most will hold there legal status closer to their hearts than many of us fortunate enough to be born here. I think that the onslaught of all the illegals that have flooded our country has jaded us to a point that we welcome no one. I speak from experience. I AM one of those.

    But if someone has come here legally, has shown a desire to embrace our country and has the appropriate background screenings (aka vetting) then I see no reason they shouldn't be allowed to carry legally. But with more provisions or restrictions than for you or I.

    I'm surprised I actually wrote this response. I could easily argue the opposite, maybe harder than the one I'm taking. But I remember that my grandparents came here from Europe in the early 1900's, and they busted their asses to give the rest of us a chance at the golden ring. back then all they needed was a tough chin and a strong pair of hands. Today is much different. Let them defend themselves as we do.
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  11. meanstreak

    meanstreak .30-06 Supporter

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    I would have to say no. After reading all of the responses I did get a different feeling as to how hard my no would be. Yes, according to the courts some provisions of the constitution have been granted to legal aliens. However, they are not citizens and do not have the same rights as citizens. They are not afforded the right to vote.

    This is just my opinion and it is worth what it costs.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
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  12. Bobster

    Bobster .30-06 Supporter

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    After reading your replies and arguments FOR, I still think ANY constitutional rights should only be afforded to US citizens. And to become a US citizen, you must be born to at least ONE US citizen or become naturalized. Just because you were born here does not make you a citizen if your parents are not. At least that's my thinking, anyways. Sorry, "dreamers"!

    If someone is willing to pay their dues and do what is necessary to become a naturalized citizen then they should be able to buy a gun or carry a pistol. If they are just here on a green card then definitely NO.

    I do think immigration procedures could be changed up a little to make illegals "legal" (ie: work permit) but if they want to become a citizen they can get to the back of the line as others have had to do who went the legal route. Absolutely NO shortcuts.

    The Dumpstercrats are doing whatever they can to make this "easy" for the illegals to assure a majority (albeit fake) in the polls. Go to the CA Sec. of State and see how easy it is to register to vote. :rolleyes:

    PS: there should be special circumstances to "shortcut" the naturalization process such as military service of at least 4 years (for example).
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
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  13. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Forum Moderator Supporter

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    I respect your all or nothing approach. That is the approach I initially took as well.

    But lets take a deeper look at this.... for a legal immigrant with the appropriate papers and authorization to be here:

    1) if they speak out against our government can they be collected, jailed without due process, tortured and held without official charges?

    2) Can the US or local State government enter their home without a warrant and quarter police, national guard, or US military in their domicile without permission?

    3) Can this legal immigrant be tried multiple times for the same accusations made against him/her by the federal, state or local government?

    4) Are legal immigrants not afforded the due process of a jury or afforded a legal counsel to defend them against crimes accused of by the federal, state or local government?

    5) can bail be set against them so extravagant that they will never have the means to release themselves from jail and an expeditious trial never to be set so they will never leave a cell for crimes accused of them by the federal, state or local government?

    These are the things that I had to reflect on. Additionally, I also had to reflect on the fact that the Bill of Rights wasn't created to grant rights in the first place. It was to acknowledge natural rights and to limit government's intervention of them.
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  14. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

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    ^This^

    Also I have to say that my initial reply was pretty tongue-in-cheek since almost nowhere in the world except the United States is anyone except a state official allowed to carry a concealed gun.

    I look at it this way:
    The right for me to swing my fist ends where your nose begins. Up to that point I'm not any real trouble.

    In the same vein, the right for me to carry a weapon ends when I decide to misuse it. Is it ever misuse to carry a loaded weapon anywhere at all, as long as it stays concealed?

    I'm always amused by these TV shows when someone sees a gun and the owner tells everyone "it's okay it's okay I have a license".

    If you don't have a damn good reason to show that gun it's never okay. Concealed weapons must be concealed 100% at all times.

    If you violate that here you can lose your permit.

    So I would say that, yes, like everyone else, a sane and honest alien should have the right to carry, and as soon as they abuse that right they get to encounter the US justice system in all its Glory.

    And by the same token, if an alien is considered to be a risky person, the question becomes moot for he shouldn't be allowed in the country at all.
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  15. Daryll

    Daryll .270 WIN Supporter

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    Ok, Water Monkey mentioned the right to self defence...

    So, a local from Madison WI (picked that at random, simply because i was there a year or 2 ago and know its a CCW state) is walking home from the movies at night, and is stopped by 2 guys, who eventually pull knives and demand cash. The local, a CCW permit holder, draws and downs both of them.

    If, instead of the local, it was me walking down that road, do I not have a right to defend myself under your constitution..?

    CaddmannQ, there are several places in Europe that have the equivelant of CCW laws... The UK does not... (apart from Northern Ireland, where Police, Prison staff and anyone else who considers themselves at risk can apply)
    In the rest of the Uk, its expressly forbidden....the guidance notes for Firearms states:
    Applications for the grant of a firearm certificate for the applicant’s, or another’s, protection,
    or that of premises, should be refused on the grounds that firearms are not an acceptable
    means of protection in Great Britain. It has been the view of successive Governments for
    many years that the private possession and carriage of firearms for personal protection is
    likely to lead to an increase in levels of violence.


    So the British Government think that allowing people to defend themselves with firearms will led to gunfights over parking spaces..!!
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  16. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Forum Moderator Supporter

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    Daryll

    Over the last 30 years as CCW expanded across the USA violent crimes have plummeted.
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  17. Daryll

    Daryll .270 WIN Supporter

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    I know that, and you know that, but as proven over the last few years, the British Government considers the population to be complete idiots...

    To be fair, I know some people who I wouldn't let anywhere near a firearm...:eek:

    Also, I don't think the UK has the crime levels that some US cities have, so our justification to CCW is considerably less.
  18. Water Monkey

    Water Monkey The man, the myth, the monkey Forum Moderator Supporter

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    A lot of those crime levels are a direct correlation to population density over 250,000

    People forget the USA has cities with significant populations not comparable to the UK.

    Here's a video that describes a lot of this. Although I take it with a grain of salt. I know the UK does distinguish violent crime data differently from the USA which inflates their numbers but the breakdown of where the problem areas in the USA are is very telling.

    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
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  19. CaddmannQ

    CaddmannQ 12g Supporter

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    There are many places in this country and all over the world that I would not go without protection. And even then I would avoid going there if possible.

    President Obama came from one of the worst! Why? Because it was one of the best places to Rouse the rabble and while violent crime around the country was dropping all this time Chicago got worse.

    It wasn't an accident that they maintained this sizzling reactor just below critical mass.
  20. Bobster

    Bobster .30-06 Supporter

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    OK, how about this: an immigrant must continue to obey the laws of his/her home country until naturalized... :popcorn:
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