I Just Joined the Club

[CaddmannQ]

This is so nice...


I believe I have a similar pistol version of that kit, which is a CVA. Somebody gave it to me 28 years ago, and it's a total mess. I think it'll fire again someday though, once I rebuild the whole thing.
Anyhow it's in a drawer in pieces, and I'd completely forgot about it until you posted those photos. I'll have to dig it back out soon.

What are you loading? The velocity looks a little low to me. . . .

My buddy loaded them. He wrote the specs on the boxes, and I wrote the velocities on the box flaps, and gave it all back spent to be loaded again. So anyhow, I don't have the specs anymore.

I told him to make me up some 150 grn wussie loads so the kids could shoot the Mossberg more easily, but I was hoping for even slower: around 1500 fps with a 150 grn slug would probably be manageable.
Normally I'm shooting 170s at about 2200, from a 16" carbine.

 

[hombre243]

View attachment 11128

This is so nice...


I believe I have a similar pistol version of that kit, which is a CVA. Somebody gave it to me 28 years ago, and it's a total mess. I think it'll fire again someday though, once I rebuild the whole thing.
Anyhow it's in a drawer in pieces, and I'd completely forgot about it until you posted those photos. I'll have to dig it back out soon.



My buddy loaded them. He wrote the specs on the boxes, and I wrote the velocities on the box flaps, and gave it all back spent to be loaded again. So anyhow, I don't have the specs anymore.

I told him to make me up some 150 grn wussie loads so the kids could shoot the Mossberg more easily, but I was hoping for even slower: around 1500 fps with a 150 grn slug would probably be manageable.
Normally I'm shooting 170s at about 2200.

Thank you. I made one like it back in about 1980 but sold it when I moved to Alameda, CA. I only had 3 cheap guns then and did not know their gun laws and just to make me feel secure...I sold them. The one I built back then was a CVA. The Traditions is the exact same gun, made by the same Spanish company, now under Traditions company logo.

I wanted an antique look. I left the wood a bit rough and the stain went on heavy and I rubbed it in and raised the grain. I only gave it a very light rubdown with one of those finishing pads and then applied the Birchwood Casey finish. I actually started this one morning and had it hanging on hangers to dry the stain over night. I varnished it next day before work and it was ready to assemble that evening.

Notice the flash cup? It is gone as is the standard nipple. I switched it over to a new type (cannot remember the name) that shoots shotshell primers. It now shoots Blackhorn 209 and drills holes in the bull at 50-70 yards. I can't see well enough to shoot farther without a scope, but it is my deer gun for 2016.

Now, concerning those wussie loads: If you can get some Trail Boss, you can get light loads, low recoil and get lots of shooting with x treme plated bullets and Trail Boss. Trail Boss is easy.

The load data is for a 30-30.

160 grain Trail Boss loads will be down in your velocity range. (Per Hodgdon website. But 150 gr bullets work as well)

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

 

[CaddmannQ]

My buddy says he's using Winchester 296 and 160 grn nozzlers

 

[hombre243]

My buddy says he's using Winchester 296 and 160 gr Noslers

If you look at the Hodgdon site, in the education tab, (hard to find) they tell reloaders looking for soft loads, that only a few powders are safe for low velocity loading. H4895 and Trail Boss are 2 of them. I will track down the article and copy it for you:

Low Recoil Loads
One great advantage of handloading is adjusting the ballistics to suite a particular need. Wish you could enjoy that .375 H&H at the range for 50 shots instead of 2 or 3 before the recoil takes its toll? Or how about some extended practice on a plate rack with your “grizzly bear stopper” revolver? The Hodgdon Reloading Data Center has an option to do just this.

Unfortunately, creating a low recoil load is not as simple as just dropping the powder charge. For most cartridge / powder combinations, getting the powder charge low will cause ignition and ballistic problems. Low velocity, low recoil loading is possible, but as always, only with the correct reload data.

Hodgdon has three separate tabs under the DATA menu of the website’s main page to help in low recoil loading.

• The first is titled “H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads.” H4895 has proven to be a versatile powder that performs superbly at lower powder charges. Loads in this listing are reduced from full power but still offer mid-range performance.
• 
  
• If the goal is minimum recoil, the answer is Hodgdon Trail Boss powder. The second tab under the website DATA menu is titled (Trail Boss Reduced Loads link not working; The old data sheet does not include reduced loads for the 30-30. However, the Hodgdon rule of thumb is their 60% rule. Whatever the max load is in a data manual, multiply by .60 and start there and work up. Trail Boss is safe because it is so bulky that you can load it all the way up to the point in the case where the base of the bullet is at its lowest when set to its correct depth. However, do not compress Trail Boss as pressures go up fast.)
  
• 
  
• Trail Boss can be applied to any cartridge you may want to reload. Trail Boss reloads are very mild and easy to shoot. Designed for Cowboy Action Shooting, Trail Boss has proven to be a great way to get more practice with your big bore hunting rifle.
• Not to leave shotgun shooters out, the third tab under the website’s DATA menu is titled “Reduced Recoil Shotgun Loads.” These loads give enough velocity to break a thrown clay target but take a big bite out of the recoil. Ideal for training, particularly for women and youth shooters, where even a light standard target load can wallop the shoulder hard.

 

[CaddmannQ]

Thanks Hombre. I'll have a chat with him about that.

 

[hombre243]

Thanks Hombre. I'll have a chat with him about that.

I will try to find the sheet explains the 60% rule.

Here it is. It is easier to paste than to send the pdf.

IMR TRAIL BOSS REDUCED LOADS FOR RIFLE AND PISTOL



As noted in the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed

primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets in pistol cartridges. However,

Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced

loads using lead or jacketed bullets. These reduced loads make firing such

cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester

Magnum pure fun!


Listed below we show a few examples of such loads throughout the

Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you don't see Trail

Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow.


This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications:


1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case

and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill

the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and

weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the

maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!


2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load

from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting load.


3) Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge,

all the while searching for the most accurate reduced load. Once

found, the fun begins!

 

[hombre243]

I had yesterday and today planned for breaking in the new rifle but this includes some preliminary accuracy reports too. BUT, as luck would have it with 20-30 mph winds even a 25 yard target would be a waste of powder and lead. SO we shall see what tomorrow brings. This will give me time to drum up some loads specifically for testing this gun. I did run 7 factory flat nose Federals and 7 reloaded cartridges that have Xtreme flat nosed plated 150 grain bullets up there on the business end and they cycled perfectly. Both loads were set up for the Marlin I had last year so I had a sneaking idea they should work. I will set up to load to those specs. And if all goes well, I will have a range report by week's end...or sooner.

 

[CaddmannQ]

Oh Lee Chit Hombre. I was stuck in an Iowa storm once. Roads totally closed for 100 miles. I won't repeat that.

But as for weather, no tornado or earthquake would have stopped me from shooting a box of bullets onto the dirt yesterday.

I got New rifle (owner) syndrome.

 

[hombre243]

Oh Lee Chit Hombre. I was stuck in an Iowa storm once. Roads totally closed for 100 miles. I won't repeat that.

But as for weather, no tornado or earthquake would have stopped me from shooting a box of bullets onto the dirt yesterday.

I got New rifle (owner) syndrome.

This time of year and in late fall when the winds kick up and it is below about 60 deg I have severe sinus headaches and 1000 mg of ibuprophen does not help it. I will get there and be comfortable. Ear muffs do not help. I think it has more to do with barometric pressure. Of course, I tried an aluminum foil hat and it didn't help. Much.

BTW, it does hurt to have to sit and look at an unfired (by me) new rifle, and loading new ammo for it when I have to wait a couple days to shoot just makes me want to eat a piece of cake. But I have survived this long (I was born 51 years into the last Millennium) I have had to learn a certain amount of patience...or become one.

 

[hombre243]

Ready for the big dance recital.



I found that i need a cheek pad. The scope is on stilts and my cheek weld seems to be more of a chin weld. I had a Blackhawk laying around, still new, that I got for the MVP and I believe it will do well until I can get a different pad. I also put a butt pad on for the extra length but it may not be needed.



The Blackhawk cheek piece is perfect. I think I will keep it on there. If I have to restring the cheekpiece I will replace the slide on buttpad with a black one.

 

[hombre243]

Thanks fo posting that pic hombre
I had no idea you could fold down the blade of the backsight Obviously still getting to know mine.

I think there are two styles of sight. Mine came with a Williams. It does not fold. But they sell some rifles with Marble? sights also. Those may fold. To tell the truth, I cannot remember now what I learned when I was researching about the Mossy 464. ***I just looked at Mossberg site. Their rifles come with at least 3 different sights. Williams, Marble and a set of Fiber Optics. I did see this option on one at Bud's , but that model is not in this years line up. I got some high rings for my rifle as the Objective lens is 44 mm. It has plenty of clearance. Takes the worry out of being close.

 

[hombre243]

I'm a traditionalist. Lever guns don't wear glass.

I am positive this will make you swoon. I want to start a new tradition...eclectic.

I named the Kentucky I built. Viola, as in Voila misspelled. The 464 is dubbed Curly Bill, as in Curly Billl Brocius. Midway has the case on sale for a heck of a good price. 25 bucks plus $9.99 shipping

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Brocius

Enjoy

 

[hombre243]

I finally got Curly Bill out to the range and he bucked and kicked but I was not especially impressed. However, I was not real happy about the wind and rain and hurried most shots. Today was the first time out so it was "Get on the paper" day and see what it is capable of. I will post 2 pics when I get them scanned, but the net has been down since last night and just got back up 45 mins ago. I have a lot of emails to answer so I will edit and add a couple targets. One was factory ammo, Federal 150 gr flat nose. The other was 125 gr fn/hp. Fired at 50 yards. Winds were gusty 15 30 mph at times and it was pelting rain, then it slowed. But I got soaked and P/O'd so instead of wasting ammo I went home.

Last 5 of 20 shots of factory ammo were in the bull, 25.5 gr IMR 4198 got me a nice group about an inch low from the bull. I want to try Reloader 15 also.

I loaded up to 27.5 gr in .5 gr increments and most groups were not acceptable. The first 2 factory loads were off the paper, and one of the 26.0 or 26.5 gr homegrown loads actually hit the wrong target. I do not even know what shots are what now so I will have to start over. Glad I only used half the rounds I loaded. Anyway...photos will come later.

But this little rifle is fun. I like it better than the Marlin. I will be taking off the butt pad as I do not need the length and this rifle handles recoil way better than the Marlin. I LIKE it, I really LIKE it.

PS In the second pic that is a 5 shot group. One shot went almost perfectly into a previous hole.

 

[sullivan]

Curly Bill groups very well; he's a Keeper

 

[hombre243]

Curly Bill groups very well; he's a Keeper

Thanks. I hope I can refine the loads for a little tighter groups. I suspect powder/load density so I will load the next batch with Rel 15. I believe it is a bit bulkier than the 4198 so it should fill the case better.. We shall see. And if that don't work...like me ol granpappy used to say...if at first you don't suck seed...just forget it.

 

[hombre243]

I think I am narrowing this down. I suspect worn out brass, or a bad hand primer tool. I will prime some with it tonight, and some on the press. I noticed a difference in the fired primers. The reloaded primers are pooched a bit after firing. Not so that the firing pin dent flowed or anything, but the primers were almost just like they were when I pressed them in at loading. BUT, I noticed that they were flattened a bit when they were newly loaded. Could be I am crushing the primers. That can cause all kinds of erratic behavior. Tomorrow will tell.

 

[hombre243]

I think I am narrowing this down. I suspect worn out brass, or a bad hand primer tool. I will prime some with it tonight, and some on the press. I noticed a difference in the fired primers. The reloaded primers are pooched a bit after firing. Not so that the firing pin dent flowed or anything, but the primers were almost just like they were when I pressed them in at loading. BUT, I noticed that they were flattened a bit when they were newly loaded. Could be I am crushing the primers. That can cause all kinds of erratic behavior. Tomorrow will tell.

I did some comparing of brass and found some differences between how the primers look in the fired factory rounds and my reloads. I had a long post explaining how I came to the conclusion but I hit a wrong button and whoosh...it was gone.

What I believe MY problem here is...worn out primer pockets and generally worn out brass. I compared brass and targets and when I shot what and blahblah...all that...and that is what it looks like. I need new brass. I will test the theory tomorrow.

 

[hombre243]

What do you reloaders think of this observation?:

Looking at the Federal large rifle primers I am using, in the Remington cases, comparing them to the new Winchester large rifle primers I just inserted in 5 test loads, and finding a chart that tells diameters of the primers, I have been using the largest diameter primers in the cases from the manufacturer who makes the smallest primers. Naturally, Remington will use its own primers so they fit their primer pockets and primers to exacting dimensions, and fit one to the other. Remington primer diameter is .2100". Winchester primers are .2114". Federal primers are .2120". It may not sound like a lot but I may be smashing the Federal primers in both the press and hand primer, just by loading the tighter fitting primer into a smaller cavity.

I just loaded 5 loads with Winchester primers to see how the primer reacts upon setting the primer and firing. Comparing these Winchester primers to the Federal primers set into other loads, The Winchesters primers retained a small bit of crown and the Federals are much more flat looking. I may have to start loading cases with their own primers if I am going to load these cases. This rifle may be a finicky little a-hole but I am more stubborn. I will just get a bigger target.

I wonder how much effect this flattening has on performance. I have been using these Federals on the 30-30 used for the Marlin I sold and they worked great, and in all the different .308/7.62 cases I have used. No problems at all. All loads using the Federal primers were eventually tuned to shooting decent groups.

If the cases are worn out as speculated before, nothing will help. I am headed to the range at some point today. Hopefully with the loads I am taking I will find an answer. If I find the 5 test loads work well with the Winchesters I will be pulling a couple hundred bullets. I will reload with plated jobs ad use them up, and then switch primers. I will save the few new remaining Federal primers I have and use them in the Federal brass I have, which include Lake City.

Oh, I am not sure who mentioned to me to forget his observation...no can do...my new Winchester primers are yellow brass. The factory ammo is silvery looking. ALL my Federal factory ammo and Federal primers are silvery looking, not yellow. You were 50% right.

 

[hombre243]

I think I am narrowing this down. I suspect worn out brass, or a bad hand primer tool. I will prime some with it tonight, and some on the press. I noticed a difference in the fired primers. The reloaded primers are pooched a bit after firing. Not so that the firing pin dent flowed or anything, but the primers were almost just like they were when I pressed them in at loading. BUT, I noticed that they were flattened a bit when they were newly loaded. Could be I am crushing the primers. That can cause all kinds of erratic behavior. Tomorrow will tell.

Nope.

 

[hombre243]

I got some Kleen Bore patches and ran them through the bore. They are lead and heavy carbon deposit removers. Kind of expensive but I wanted to make sure a dirty barrel wasn't the problem. When I saw how dirty the patches were coming out, like tar, I bit the bullet, being careful to not damage it so I could use it later...I think I already used that line...and tore into the guts.

I watched a You Tube video that was ok, but very dark and hard to see, and made the right guesses that the 2 screws and 2 pins I was removing were the right ones. I did find some thick factory shipping grease in the receiver area so now I am wondering if I got it all when I cleaned the bore the first time. The left side of the receiver was sticky too, like it too had factory grease covering it. I used some spray solvent on a rag and that cleaned up nice and slick. Almost looks like a shiny new 94.

I used a couple Kleen Bore patches and they continued to come out black so I am wondering why. I got the can of Ballistol off the shelf and swabbed the bore a few times, once with a soaked patch, once with a plain brush and once with a soaked patch on the brush. It was much cleaner but still gray. Hopefully this will help clean out all the gunk I missed, if that is the case. I am expecting some J-B Bore Cleaner to get here tomorrow. I will scrub the bore with that too just to make sure all the crap is out of the barrel.

I reattached the scope and am hoping it is ok and won't need to go to the factory. But if it does, so be it.
Word of advice for anyone who mounts a scope to this rifle. The drilled and tapped screw holes in the receiver are drilled through, so when using loc tite thread lock, do not use too much, then when it is applied and the screws tightened, wipe off excess thoroughly and turn the rifle upside down until it seals and sets. That way you won't have to strip the gun (again like I did) to find out why the action stiffened up. I had a puddle of loc tite drip through the front and back holes and harden on the front and back of the bolt. It is as snug as a glass bedded barrel.

Off to the range tomorrow.