I Just Joined the Club

[sullivan]

hombre,
Cleaning the bore is a kind of hobby of mine but in truth, you have to work out what works best for your rifle. I say , "hobby" because I have got it down pretty slick now But that was not always the case
I see you have what is probably carbon in the bore; that dark stuff. J B Bore Compound is good for that. I used it every 200 rounds when carbon build-up at the leade could not be removed with a bronze brush. A bore scope was used for verifying the build-up. Without one, be guided by a decline in accuracy. In a 30-30, I would expect the decline to take a lot longer than 200 rounds but as always YMMV.
Otherwise, I used Bore Tech Carbon Remover with a bronze brush (but WD40 has been recommended by an old mate and is cheaper). It is helpful to remove loose carbon with solvent on several patches until the black stuff starts to disappear. Then get stuck into it with the BB

 

[hombre243]

hombre,
Cleaning the bore is a kind of hobby of mine but in truth, you have to work out what works best for your rifle. I say , "hobby" because I have got it down pretty slick now But that was not always the case
I see you have what is probably carbon in the bore; that dark stuff. J B Bore Compound is good for that. I used it every 200 rounds when carbon build-up at the leade could not be removed with a bronze brush. A bore scope was used for verifying the build-up. Without one, be guided by a decline in accuracy. In a 30-30, I would expect the decline to take a lot longer than 200 rounds but as always YMMV.
Otherwise, I used Bore Tech Carbon Remover with a bronze brush (but WD40 has been recommended by an old mate and is cheaper). It is helpful to remove loose carbon with solvent on several patches until the black stuff starts to disappear. Then get stuck into it with the BB

I suspect it is my fault if there is so much buildup in the bore. I may not have got all the factory goo out, not realizing how thick the stuff is. 200 rounds is way more than it took for this rifle to start acting up...more like 75 or fewer. But it even feels different now when i clean it. And what you said about the leade...the throat and leade were the worst. I ran some patches just down to the end of the chamber, but stopped before it got too far into the rifling, and they were filthy. Time and again I had to swap patches just because I wanted to make sure the chamber area was clean and finally it started to show some promise. I will be shooting tomorrow and then using the J-B when i strip it for cleaning. Hopefully this will clean it real good and also smooth the bore enough that it does not hold so much carbon and gunk.

As mentioned, I am starting from ground zero. Full cleaning and making sure it is not a fouled bore causing my problems. But I have the feeling after seeing all the crap in there that that may be the case. It may be a lot of work to go through the whole process again and again but it is cheaper than sending everything in to the factory. I will let y'all know. It may be embarrassing to have to fess up but i do like small groups and that will offset a little redface.

 

[hombre243]

hombre,
Cleaning the bore is a kind of hobby of mine but in truth, you have to work out what works best for your rifle. I say , "hobby" because I have got it down pretty slick now But that was not always the case
I see you have what is probably carbon in the bore; that dark stuff. J B Bore Compound is good for that. I used it every 200 rounds when carbon build-up at the leade could not be removed with a bronze brush. A bore scope was used for verifying the build-up. Without one, be guided by a decline in accuracy. In a 30-30, I would expect the decline to take a lot longer than 200 rounds but as always YMMV.
Otherwise, I used Bore Tech Carbon Remover with a bronze brush (but WD40 has been recommended by an old mate and is cheaper). It is helpful to remove loose carbon with solvent on several patches until the black stuff starts to disappear. Then get stuck into it with the BB

Sullivan,
I made it out to the range. Embarrassed as I may be I have to admit most of my problems with this rifle are shooter errors, faux pas and just plain duh! Throw in a DOH! or two and that should be sufficient. Pa always said that if at first you don't succeed, keep suckin. Well, as far as cleaning a rifle barrel, I suck. I scrubbed the bore with everything I had and it must have done some good because I finally got the rifle to shoot better, and more importantly, uniformly.

Now hopefully the J_B treatment will help even more. Going from not even keeping shots on the paper to what I shot today, I will say that it is improving and hopefully it will get better. Here are some target photos. They are also posted in Andrew's Thread.



I swabbed between 5 shot groups using Hoppe's solvent, then dried with clean patches. I allowed to cool for a few minutes and the rifle seemed to prefer a slightly soiled bore. Every first shot of a 5 shot group was Left and Low. Could be the rifle does not like the cold. I know my rest was shaky but for the most part, I did well and now I know what I can expect from the rifle.

(I did not swab between Target 2 and 3. But I did allow it to cool.)

The load I used was as follows:
R-P cases; Fed LR primers; Hodgdon LVR powder @ 37.5 gr.; Sierra 150 gr. Flat Nose Soft Point; OAL is 2.550".

Range was 50 yards. Temp 50; no wind; Mosquitos and gnats up the yingzoo (both the wazoo and the ying yang...at the same time). Great day to shoot. I went out at 6 am and was home before 830. I fired 10 shots to sight in and the remaining 15 for "score".

I appreciate all the tips everyone gave me. It seems the one I needed to pay the most attention to was the one about cleaning the factory goo out. I thought I did. Obviously I did not. We got er on the run now. It can only get better over time.

Here are some target measurements for comparison:

Target 1 is a 3” orange stick on spot. Target 2 is a black 2” spot. Target 3 is a 7” target with a ¾” red spot. The 10 ring is 2 ½”.

 

[sullivan]

"..........the rifle seems to prefer a slightly soiled bore".
That statement is very important. For years, shooters have been oiling their bores with Ballistol after cleaning. When you wipe it out, prior to shooting, it acts like fouling to give a more consistent POI, especially with the first shot. That is, the first shot is not so much of a flier and is closer to the group made by following shots. It is not AFAIK, a long term rust preventive. We shot weekly and it was more than sufficient in our humid, salty climate.

The JB will be Difficult to remove. I used to go to extremes to avoid leaving some in my precious bore In truth, plenty of solvent (Ballistol too), lots of patches and bronze brushes to scour the stuff out of the corners of the rifling is the way to go but I freely admit to boiling out the barrel just in case it got in to the "pores". I never minded all this rigmarole but I would not blame anyone who did. I suppose you could say that I never liked leaving anything to chance

Good luck hombre. Hope it all goes well and look forward to your results.

 

[hombre243]

"..........the rifle seems to prefer a slightly soiled bore".
That statement is very important. For years, shooters have been oiling their bores with Ballistol after cleaning. When you wipe it out, prior to shooting, it acts like fouling to give a more consistent POI, especially with the first shot. That is, the first shot is not so much of a flier and is closer to the group made by following shots. It is not AFAIK, a long term rust preventive. We shot weekly and it was more than sufficient in our humid, salty climate.

The JB will be Difficult to remove. I used to go to extremes to avoid leaving some in my precious bore In truth, plenty of solvent (Ballistol too), lots of patches and bronze brushes to scour the stuff out of the corners of the rifling is the way to go but I freely admit to boiling out the barrel just in case it got in to the "pores". I never minded all this rigmarole but I would not blame anyone who did. I suppose you could say that I never liked leaving anything to chance

Good luck hombre. Hope it all goes well and look forward to your results.

Thanks for the tips. I had just read another article that said that was one thing the 464 and many hunting rifles preferred: a little poopoo in the tutu. This rifle did seem to prove the point.

But, I will use these super duper rubber squeegees and patches and whatever I need to remove it. Brownells says, though, that it is easy to remove...what do I know. This is my first time using it.

What I do know is that this rifle does shoot very well. I just had to learn the hard way I guess. I had no idea the factory grease was so hard to get out. I sprayed it with bore cleaner and ran the snake through it, then used a rod and some Hoppes patches and the bore looked clean. I did not soak it or use the brush. Next time I guess I will have to be more aggressive.

I didn't realize what was in the bore until I realized what was on the receiver. That was what set me to wondering if factory grease was the problem. It was sticky like someone spilled ice cream on it and let it dry.

Then when I finally decided to venture into the darkness and remove the bolt and firing pin, and the lever I found that the chamber and throat was jammed with the stuff. It took a while but finally I could feel the difference. That crap must come off in layers because it was soak, brush, patch, soak etc etc for an hour, then let it soak and start over.

I wanted to shoot more but I figured I had done enough. Now it is time to give it another good scrubbing.

The rifle did not mind one bit that I rammed a few semi-wet Hoppe's patches down its throat. The phrase keeping it clean has now been forever ingrained into this rusted vault of a brain.

 

[CaddmannQ]

Hombre, I really didn't give a thought to the possibility of lube fouling the gun.

I suppose this might have happened to me too, but I took mine completely apart after the first 20 rounds. It didn't seem to have too much Lube from the factory. Hardly any.

I sprayed out the empty receiver with carburetor cleaner and a 90 psi air hose. I used oil and Scotch-Brite to knock the rough edges off of the bolt and the bearing surfaces. I scrubbed the bore and chamber.

I did not use gun grease when I re-lubed it. I put on that WD-40 anti-corrosion oil on every surface, and then wiped most of it off.

I put grease on the bottom of the bolt where it contacts the hammer, and I put a little dab on the hammer end of the firing pin.

My first cold shot is always off, and the next two are chock-a-block.

4th and 5th shots will diverge slightly, but that may be me. I have not shot this gun locked down tight on a recoil sled & I believe the gun shoots better than I do.

 

[hombre243]

Hombre, I really didn't give a thought to the possibility of lube fouling the gun.

I suppose this might have happened to me too, but I took mine completely apart after the first 20 rounds. It didn't seem to have too much Lube from the factory. Hardly any.

I sprayed out the empty receiver with carburetor cleaner and a 90 psi air hose. I used oil and Scotch-Brite to knock the rough edges off of the bolt and the bearing surfaces. I scrubbed the bore and chamber.

I did not use gun grease when I re-lubed it. I put on that WD-40 anti-corrosion oil on every surface, and then wiped most of it off.

I put grease on the bottom of the bolt where it contacts the hammer, and I put a little dab on the hammer end of the firing pin.

My first cold shot is always off, and the next two are chock-a-block.

4th and 5th shots will diverge slightly, but that may be me. I have not shot this gun locked down tight on a recoil sled & I believe the gun shoots better than I do.

Cadd, I hadn't thought the stuff would be so sticky. I used a q-tip inside the receiver to pick out some yellow honey like gunk. I found 2 drops near the chamber mouth. It was not hard like amber, but it was like almost dry epoxy.I shot a lot of ammo through the rifle and probably baked a couple layers in to the lands and grooves. It was my screwup, but now I know.

I also had some sticky stuff on the outsides of the receiver but it was not sticky to touch until it soaked in solvent for awhile. Then it had to be scrubbed off like that goo that is left after peeling a label from a jar.

I think I have it under control but I got the J-B stuff today and I will be tearing the rifle down again and really giving it a couple of once overs...if that makes sense. But I was almost giddy at the range when I realized I would not have to send the scope or the rifle in for repairs. Now I have to get or make something to raise the Gorilla Bag up a bit...several inches, so I can snuggle it into the pads between the 2 small bags. It will control recoil and save my knuckles. They took a pretty good beating today.

I will be ordering some FNSP 170s and also will be trying out these coated lead 165 lead bullets I got the other day. The rifle was purchased for use as a small game and varmint gun and the biggest animal I will ever shoot is a coyote, unless some farmer needs a cow whacked. Velocities do not have to be hot but if i want to shoot anything around 100 yards I will need some juice behind the bullets. 170 and 180 grain bullets do not have to be so fast but smaller than that and it is good IMHO to speed em up to at least 2000-2200. The H-LVR loads will probably be hotter but I do not think I ever got close to the 2500 fps speed the book says.

I have 2 pounds of the LVR and almost a full pound of IMR 4198. I have partial bottles of IMR 4064 and some H4895. I am saving a couple bottles of IMR 8208 XBR for the MVP but it is said to work well with a 30-30 too. But if this H-LVR keeps working out I will stick with it. I liked how it worked today and also liked it because it shoots clean. The cases had no carbon around the shoulder area at all. The other cases I fired before this last scrub down did hav crud on the shoulder and case mouth, a sure sign of a dirty Throat.

I have never had these troubles before so I was stumped and all I could think of it "send it in." Luckily now I do not have to. I watched the one You Tube video that showed how to disassemble the 464. Not the best because the guy did not use any extra lighting and you have to strain to figure out where what he was pointing to was located. But takedown was 2 screws and 2 pins and that was sufficient to get the bolt and firing pin out. The inside of the receiver was coated with goo so I used a toothbrush lightly in there with some Ballistol. Then I used a brush with a patch on it to swab it down. It may still need some more work but It is working way better now.

One thing I am seeing now since I took off the factory goo, is a long wear mark on the top right of the bolt where the bluing has rubbed off since I put it back together. Hope I can figure that one out tomorrow. I wouldn't want to wear a hole in something.

 

[CaddmannQ]

BTW, I used blue Loctite when I mounted my wife's new scope.
I don't know if I got any on the action, but the bolt was plenty oily. It wouldn't have stuck.

I like to let loctite dry on the threads then assemble.

 

[CaddmannQ]

. . . a long wear mark on the top right of the bolt where the bluing has rubbed off since I put it back together. Hope I can figure that one out tomorrow. I wouldn't want to wear a hole in something.

Mine is doing this too.
you can see it in this shot.

 

[hombre243]

BTW, I used blue Loctite when I mounted my wife's new scope.
I don't know if I got any on the action, but the bolt was plenty oily. It wouldn't have stuck.

I like to let loctite dry on the threads then assemble.

I obviously used too much. The tube was almost empty so I had to squeeze on the tube. I did not know the holes went all the way through. I wiped off the excess but with this stuff a tiny bit goes a long way. It happened 2 times. Now I know.

I didn't see any wear on the bolt before I took the bolt out and cleaned the rifle. I thought maybe I jammed something. It works smoothly, but thought I would toss it out there and see what else I did wrong. Thanks for setting my mind at ease.

 

[CaddmannQ]

On mine the silver coating is wearing off and you can see the wear pattern quite distinctly. I've shot about four hundred rounds out of this gun now.

That was a horrible picture, I'm sorry.

I'll get a good picture of the bolt when I clean the guns tonight.

 

[hombre243]

On mine the silver coating is wearing off and you can see the wear pattern quite distinctly. I've shot about four hundred rounds out of this gun now.

That was a horrible picture, I'm sorry.

I'll get a good picture of the bolt when I clean the guns tonight.

I wonder if it would be wise to buff out the corner that is causing the wear, or if it will just smooth out with time, but not cause problems with the bolt. I am tempted to smear some J-B on the bolt right there and see if the bolt smooths out.

 

[hombre243]

I wonder if it would be wise to buff out the corner that is causing the wear, or if it will just smooth out with time, but not cause problems with the bolt. I am tempted to smear some J-B on the bolt right there and see if the bolt smooths out.

I will answer my own question: Nope...not necessary. The wear line is on both sides on the top of the bolt. Equal wear is just indicator of a snug fit. It will smooth itself out as it breaks in.

I tore into it again today. I lightly cleaned it at the range while it was warm and the bore did not seem to be as dirty as I expected. But today I got some more gunk out using Kroil and J-B compound. I made 10 passes each direction and swabbed with Kroil. I did this with 3 different patches so the patches always had fresh paste. I also ran several passes with a brush between J-B patches. I flushed the bore with a wet Kroil patch when I finished with the paste and it all came out pretty easily. The first 2 patches with J-B came out dirty. One black and one not so black. Third patch was same color as the paste. I finished cleaning with Hoppe's and a dry patch, then some Rem-Oil. It is squeaky clean. I applied a very light smear of Molybdenum grease on the wear points and then oiled the sides of the bolt and all pivots. It is now as clean as I can get it and lubed as good as I know how. I ran it through the paces a dozen times and it is smooth as butter.

Cleaning it from the breech is better and gets the chamber cleaner because you can get into the throat from the same direction the bullet travels. I used an oversized swab to get the throat and shoulder angle. Now I also know the chamber and throat are clean. I can't wait to dirty it up again.

 

[hombre243]

I went to my friend's place today and he brought his bore scope. He wanted to check my 464 and make sure I got all the gunk out of it and also he had never seen my Savage 11 V/T .308. After he thoroughly scoped the bores and chambers, he said both bores were "Perfectly" clean. No carbon or any other gunk that needed attention...except the 464. He showed me a 1/4" streak of copper on one land between the muzzle and front of the front sight. The Savage had some strange lines in the bore but neither of us could figure out what they were. Almost looked like grooves or deep cuts that cut across the lands in a very slow twist. They may or may not be intentional. I will have to ask Savage. Maybe it is a method to slow down a fast twist barrel.???

If these rifles don't like a clean bore, it is going to hate this. I cannot wait to see for myself the difference the cleanest of clean bore makes.

 

[CaddmannQ]

Were those lines close to the muzzle, close to the breech, or in the middle?

 

[hombre243]

Were those lines close to the muzzle, close to the breech, or in the middle?

I will ask. I do not know.

Closer to the chamber.

 

[CaddmannQ]

Here you can see the bolt wear a bit.
It doesnt show up well in photos.

I'm more worried about the wear on this extractor.

 

[hombre243]

Here you can see the bolt wear a bit.View attachment 12330
View attachment 12331 It doesnt show up well in photos.

I'm more worried about the wear on this extractor.
View attachment 12332

The wear marks on your bolt are just like mine. I think they are just from a tight fit and will wear down and smooth out eventually. If you are referring in your post 95, to the lines in my bore...I emailed my friend to see if he remembered where the lines started. I think they started at the ?leade? or where the rifling started and made 1 revolution or 2. I never saw a bore picture before so I do not know how to read what I saw.

 

[CaddmannQ]

You'll notice that the wear marks don't go very far down the bolt towards the hammer end.

When this thing wears is when it's nearly all the way out.

At that point it has the least backspan still inside the receiver (so the least amount of support) and full pressure from the hammer.

Look at a winchester 94. it has a relief under the bolt & the hammer doesn't touch once it cocks back.

I've long considered a similar mod for this gun.

 

[CaddmannQ]

My buddy's Winchester.