Ongoing discussion about legallity
- Thread starter Dr. Marneaus
- Start date
Just like that? Like Rats from a sinking ship?
Scoop, if they knew me, half the people in California would probably like to see me take my guns to the smelter and then and move to Tennessee.
Well I say screw them. I'm staying, I'm keeping my guns, and they're going to eventually change their laws in Sacramento whether they like it or not.
You see what they are running is a pyramid scheme, & those things eventually always have to collapse for statistical reasons.
At some point the number of new people required to join the pyramid exceeds the population of the Earth.
Scoop, if they knew me, half the people in California would probably like to see me take my guns to the smelter and then and move to Tennessee.
Well I say screw them. I'm staying, I'm keeping my guns, and they're going to eventually change their laws in Sacramento whether they like it or not.
You see what they are running is a pyramid scheme, & those things eventually always have to collapse for statistical reasons.
At some point the number of new people required to join the pyramid exceeds the population of the Earth.
Cadd, for that I give you a Gold Star and a pat on the back.
I am also willing to fight to keep my guns. All the way.
I asked two Sheriffs from different states if they would have deputies confiscate guns if ordered by the US Gummint. Both of them said "No way."
We have a county election for Sheriff Nov 2018, and I'll ask all candidates that question, believe me.
Well fortunately our Sheriff has taken the correct stance and made it very clear where she stands.
Now the Fresno City police chief Jerry Dyer is a different story. He's had the unenviable task of cleaning up a big gang-infested Sewer in west Fresno. Thankfully I live far east of East Fresno, in the next town actually.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Fresno California was the illegal gun and drug sales capital of the state. I mean this guy is taking paramilitary style groups out to do the Eliot Ness thing. It's a tough undertaking and he's a tough guy.
But if you watch him he is The clone of dr. Phil in many respects. He plays the political correctness game very much the same way.
Now the Fresno City police chief Jerry Dyer is a different story. He's had the unenviable task of cleaning up a big gang-infested Sewer in west Fresno. Thankfully I live far east of East Fresno, in the next town actually.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Fresno California was the illegal gun and drug sales capital of the state. I mean this guy is taking paramilitary style groups out to do the Eliot Ness thing. It's a tough undertaking and he's a tough guy.
But if you watch him he is The clone of dr. Phil in many respects. He plays the political correctness game very much the same way.
I have installed a mesa Tactical adapter and a Shockwave arm brace on my Shockwave. The regulation that Mossberg built the Shockwave around is that it is a "firearm" not a shotgun, that has a MINIMUM overall length of 26.5 inches, and does not have a shoulder stock attached to it. ATF has ruled that the Shockwave Arm Brace is NOT a shoulder stock. They have also ruled that any arm brace can be shouldered as it is NOT a shoulder stock.
My set up is well over the 26.5 inch length with the Shockwave Arm Brace installed. As long as I am within the regulation, which I am, there is no need to submit the firearm for ATF approval. Just as Sig came out with the P516 pistol with the arm brace installed. They submitted the SB-15 brace for evaluation, and it was approved by ATF for installation on their AR pistols. Every other manufacturer did not submit models of their pistols to ATF with arm braces installed. The brace was approved for installation on anyone's AR pistol.
Black Aces Tactical submitted basically an Shockwave "firearm" with the arm brace installed. ATF approved it as it fell within the regulation. My set up falls within that regulation also, so there is no need for me to submit my "firearm" to ATF for approval.
I am not a lawyer, however I am a retired federal agent, and I do believe that I am well within the law.
My set up is well over the 26.5 inch length with the Shockwave Arm Brace installed. As long as I am within the regulation, which I am, there is no need to submit the firearm for ATF approval. Just as Sig came out with the P516 pistol with the arm brace installed. They submitted the SB-15 brace for evaluation, and it was approved by ATF for installation on their AR pistols. Every other manufacturer did not submit models of their pistols to ATF with arm braces installed. The brace was approved for installation on anyone's AR pistol.
Black Aces Tactical submitted basically an Shockwave "firearm" with the arm brace installed. ATF approved it as it fell within the regulation. My set up falls within that regulation also, so there is no need for me to submit my "firearm" to ATF for approval.
I am not a lawyer, however I am a retired federal agent, and I do believe that I am well within the law.
Are you referring to the Shockwave Blade? Or is this more similar to the Sig Brace? Those are considered "not a stock" when attached to a pistol, not sure if the same interpretation would carry over into other classifications.
While you're logic does make sense, I'm not sure i would want to be the test case for something like this without a lawyer on speed dial. Even if perfectly legal one could still end up needing a lawyer to resolve some misunderstanding.
I did have the Blade installed on an AR pistol and never felt completely comfortable with it despite it being totally legal where I live. There are a lot of people and some LEO's that are very naive of even the most basic of gun laws much less venturing in to fringe NFA territory.
While you're logic does make sense, I'm not sure i would want to be the test case for something like this without a lawyer on speed dial. Even if perfectly legal one could still end up needing a lawyer to resolve some misunderstanding.
I did have the Blade installed on an AR pistol and never felt completely comfortable with it despite it being totally legal where I live. There are a lot of people and some LEO's that are very naive of even the most basic of gun laws much less venturing in to fringe NFA territory.
When I first got my Shockwave, I remember showing it to our local Police Chief. He seemed very uncomfortable with the weapon. I gave him a copy of the BATFE letter and he seemed okay after that. I reckon LE doesn't stay abreast of new introductions in the gun industry, which would seem a bad practice.
Rico, I wish you could've been present for the last meeting I had with our local sheriff asking him to complete/sign the required paperwork for the last silencer that I was planning to build.
The first 10 minutes was pretty intense, to say the least.
But by the time the 30 minute meeting concluded however, we were discussing the possibility that he may get one for this 300 rem mag precision rifle that he was building. I believe that we talked more about his gun, than mine
The first 10 minutes was pretty intense, to say the least.
But by the time the 30 minute meeting concluded however, we were discussing the possibility that he may get one for this 300 rem mag precision rifle that he was building. I believe that we talked more about his gun, than mine
cmcdonald
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One thing I can say is that at least here they keep it a little simpler. 'Non-restricted' firearms must meet minimum length requirements...no exceptions. Yes, no flexibility but also no confusion that could land you in hot water either. Folding stocks or anything else do not qualify for minimum length requirements when extended. Must be permanently affixed. AR pistol braces wouldn't affect us here as AR's are already 'restricted'...so pistol or rifle, brace or no brace it would be the same.
I regularly have to tell people in conversation that they are quite misinformed on US gun laws. I tell them in most states it's not nearly as easy to get a gun 'legally' as one might think or as easy as the media makes out. And, that there are many differences in regulation from state to state, which makes deciphering gun law a legal minefield for law abiding and responsible gun owners. I've had people shake their heads at me, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. I watch them set their hair on fire when I tell them that the 'gunshow loophole' is just a political fabrication the media has adopted as gospel. No helping those ones...wash my hands and walk away. Can't fix stupid and brainwashed people.
I regularly have to tell people in conversation that they are quite misinformed on US gun laws. I tell them in most states it's not nearly as easy to get a gun 'legally' as one might think or as easy as the media makes out. And, that there are many differences in regulation from state to state, which makes deciphering gun law a legal minefield for law abiding and responsible gun owners. I've had people shake their heads at me, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. I watch them set their hair on fire when I tell them that the 'gunshow loophole' is just a political fabrication the media has adopted as gospel. No helping those ones...wash my hands and walk away. Can't fix stupid and brainwashed people.
Imagine a world where telling time is such a complicated business that nobody really was sure what time it was. People would miss appointments, be late for everything.
etc etc
The world would fall apart at the seams. People just wouldn't stand for it.
But we have a world in which it is so difficult to tell what is legal and what is not legal that a large fraction of our population is involved in that business and a huge amount of our resources are devoted to feeding that business.
Now imagine that world where it's hard to tell time, & that when you call the clockmaker out to fix your clock he would sometimes fix your clock but sometimes fix it so it gave the wrong time.
And the only way to tell which, would be to call another clockmaker. And he may or may not be able to tell you the truth. He may indeed not be willing to tell you the truth assuming he can determine it himself.
Again the wheels would fall off & the world would stop.
But our situation with lawyers is exactly the same. The law is so complicated that you can't tell whether they're acting in your best interest or not, and in fact it's often so complicated that they can't even tell.
In fact, in almost every case 50%, of the lawyers have a completely different opinion.
Imagine if hospitals work that way?
Oops sorry. Imagine that hospitals don't work that way!
etc etc
The world would fall apart at the seams. People just wouldn't stand for it.
But we have a world in which it is so difficult to tell what is legal and what is not legal that a large fraction of our population is involved in that business and a huge amount of our resources are devoted to feeding that business.
Now imagine that world where it's hard to tell time, & that when you call the clockmaker out to fix your clock he would sometimes fix your clock but sometimes fix it so it gave the wrong time.
And the only way to tell which, would be to call another clockmaker. And he may or may not be able to tell you the truth. He may indeed not be willing to tell you the truth assuming he can determine it himself.
Again the wheels would fall off & the world would stop.
But our situation with lawyers is exactly the same. The law is so complicated that you can't tell whether they're acting in your best interest or not, and in fact it's often so complicated that they can't even tell.
In fact, in almost every case 50%, of the lawyers have a completely different opinion.
Imagine if hospitals work that way?
Oops sorry. Imagine that hospitals don't work that way!
There are so many laws on the books that there is no lawyer alive that knows it all. Old laws rarely go away, they just do not get enforced any more. Its almost impossible to live day to day without breaking some law, that we never knew existed.
Aditionally most laws, esp.firearms laws are writtem by people, lawyers, that have little to no understanding of firearms whatsoever.
Additionally firearms laws are meant not to punish someone for "wrongdoing" against society but to keep people under the thumb of government. I believe they are intentially written to be confusing and trip us up. Its rarely the common criminal that gets caught in the mire of legalities but the common man who is trying to do the right thing and still gets caught in the web.
How is any gun law not, by definition, an infringement?
How many of them reduce crime? Keep us safer?
Yet people continually support these laws under the false promise of being safer, protecting their children, etc.
Guns don't kill, or hurt people. They are just pieces of metal and plastic. Evil, sick and angry people kill other people. They have been doing it since the dawn of man without guns and will continue to do it until the end of man with whatever objects they can find. The best defense for this are armed good guys.
/rant
Back to the topic. It should not matter what stock, foregrip, length of barrel, magazine, barrel shroud, suppressor, etc. one affixes to their firearm. Non of those things change the inherent mature of that chunk of metal. All it does is change its appearance.
Aditionally most laws, esp.firearms laws are writtem by people, lawyers, that have little to no understanding of firearms whatsoever.
Additionally firearms laws are meant not to punish someone for "wrongdoing" against society but to keep people under the thumb of government. I believe they are intentially written to be confusing and trip us up. Its rarely the common criminal that gets caught in the mire of legalities but the common man who is trying to do the right thing and still gets caught in the web.
How is any gun law not, by definition, an infringement?
How many of them reduce crime? Keep us safer?
Yet people continually support these laws under the false promise of being safer, protecting their children, etc.
Guns don't kill, or hurt people. They are just pieces of metal and plastic. Evil, sick and angry people kill other people. They have been doing it since the dawn of man without guns and will continue to do it until the end of man with whatever objects they can find. The best defense for this are armed good guys.
/rant
Back to the topic. It should not matter what stock, foregrip, length of barrel, magazine, barrel shroud, suppressor, etc. one affixes to their firearm. Non of those things change the inherent mature of that chunk of metal. All it does is change its appearance.
CaddmannQ and MikeD should be spokesmen for the NRA. Well stated y'all.
"A liberal’s paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education, free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and only law enforcement has guns. And believe it or not, such a place does indeed already exist: It’s called Prison."
– Sheriff Joe Arpaio
"A liberal’s paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education, free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and only law enforcement has guns. And believe it or not, such a place does indeed already exist: It’s called Prison."
– Sheriff Joe Arpaio
Iagent
.410
Basically the way I look at it, as a responsible armed citizen. I follow the law, and abide. Any thug can cut off a firearm to make it convenient for them. Law abiding citizens have to comply, and it usually puts them at a disadvantage against the scum that wants to elicit tragedy to their world. Finally, I see some something that will possibly put good people on an equal playing field and make thugs think again, before busting into said persons home. A 26.5 inch shotgun is not even in the least, unreasonable for home defense. It is a tool that is already used by many, and it's not a crime to defend oneself and others cared for.
Dr. Marneaus
.270 WIN
People dont seem to understand that ALL the BATFE letter that comes with the mossberg shockwave says is
"We looked at this exact thing, and in this exact configuration, its legal, because it meets the requirements that have been on the books forever"
It DOES NOT SAY
"This exact thing is legal and anything else is illegal"
It says "if you change it, it may need to be reviewed....to make sure it still meets those old ass requirements"
it DOES NOT SAY
"anything you change on this makes it illegal"
"We looked at this exact thing, and in this exact configuration, its legal, because it meets the requirements that have been on the books forever"
It DOES NOT SAY
"This exact thing is legal and anything else is illegal"
It says "if you change it, it may need to be reviewed....to make sure it still meets those old ass requirements"
it DOES NOT SAY
"anything you change on this makes it illegal"