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AR-15 and Variants

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Re: AR15 This!

Sn3aKyGuY said:
I think you guys (and a few articles I've read on hunting deer size game with .223) have convinced me to pick up the .223/5.56 in an AR15 format. I still want a .308 AR10 down the road, but it just dropped a few notches on my list.

Check your state/local laws to make sure you can use .223 to hunt with. Most states won't allow it.

In my case, I went with 6.8 SPCII for deer and other medium game.

The 6.8 SPCII uses necked down 30 caliber cases, and .270 bullets in them from 85 gr up to about 160 gr depending on if you make your own bullets, but most commercial 6.8 ammo is from 85-120 gr.

The over the counter loads have more velocity and flatter trajectory than 30-30, 30 carbine, and similiar other proven deer droppers.
 
Re: AR15 This!

Welcome to Iowa .... I recently had to pay a $460 ticket for not having my insurance card IN my car at the time of a stop (for doing 5 over none the less). You used to be able to take your insurance in to prove you had it, but they got sick of having so many people fight them in court that they just made it so if you don't have it with you, you pay the ticket. Then they jacked up the 'court fee' from $15 to $50.
 
Colt CIA?

I'm curious if any knows what that means? I looked at a Colt "AR", its a VietNam era Colt M16 that has been neutered. No full auto, but otherwise intact for the real tempting price of $750. The tag says "Colt CIA" dont know if that means it was originally issued by the CIA during VietNam?

Curious more than anything, and I dont realistically see the funds freeing up to get it... unfortunately.
 
Re: Colt CIA?

This is in fact exactly what it looks like;
images
 
Re: Colt CIA?

Rossignol said:
This is in fact exactly what it looks like;
images

Looks to be the early issued M16 with a triangular foregrip? If so I would love to have one and for $750 I'd do it. My buddy at the local LGS has one though I don't believe it's got a CIA stamping on it, it's gorgeous!!
 
Re: Colt CIA?

Yes!!! Its the triangular forend! If I could swing the $$$ I'm thinkin an excellent rifle for comp! It has the rear rotary diopter sight, the kind that has the pin that needs to be depressed to changed. Only downsides would be that the A2 upper is fixed. I like irons, but no way that I know of to mount a sight if I would ever want to. I like the A2 stock, but my daughter may need otherwise.

Anyway, with the exception of the lower being "fixed", its original. Oh! Its not stamped CIA, just what the tag says. Which caused me to wonder if that meant it was issued by the CIA to forces in VietNam.

I did manage to test it mechanically before i left the shop! ;)
 
Re: Colt CIA?

Before the US fully committed troops to fight for the South Vietnamese government, they sent CIA and Special Forces ( Green Beret ) "advisors" in country. So it's very possible that a full auto M16 was in their hands at one time or another...the early serial number being the key...since regular US troops first going in were carrying M1 Garands and M14's, before being issued the new M16's.

Here's some info:

Colt AR15 Serial Number under 010 – Some have No logo – Tool Room Guns with distinctive tool marks on receiver. There are at least 3 guns serial number #0004 attributed to Colt. Not to be confused with Armalite SN: 0004.

Colt AR15 Model 01 – SN: 000,1xx: Usually has green painted bakelite furniture.

Through
Colt AR15 Model 01 – SN: 015,2xx

Colt AR15 Model GX – SN: 014,5xx : Adjustable length Buttstock and 10” barrel

Colt AR15 Tool Room Shorty – SN: 014,864: Adjustable Buttstock, 10” barrel, cut down triangular handguards, very short muzzle suppressor.

Colt AR15 Model 08 – SN: 015,5xx: Survival Rifle (Estimated Less than 10 made)

Colt AR15 Model 07 – SN: 015,59x: Adjustable Buttstock, 10” barrel, cut down triangular handguards, short muzzle suppressor.* “GX” model range. One gun has no Colt markings and it is in Model 07 configuration with all the paperwork showing it was exported to a NATO country before 1965 and returned before 1968.

**Note: Also noted are additional so called “GX” shortys, or “Government Experimentals”. Guns are marked AR15 with a serial number, but also a GX drawing number. At least one gun is registered in the NFA twice under the serial number and again under the GX number. Very rare, only seen one in private hands and one in a Museum. These were tested in Vietnam and Laos by Special Forces and CIA officers, then later used by troops assigned to the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group (MACV-SOG), and designated XM177E2

Military Assistance Command, Vietnam – Studies and Observations Group (MACV-SOG) was a highly classified, multi-service United States special operations unit which conducted covert unconventional warfare operations prior to and during the Vietnam War.

Established on 24 January 1964, the unit conducted strategic reconnaissance missions in Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam), the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam), Laos, and Cambodia; carried out the capture of enemy prisoners, rescued downed pilots, and conducted rescue operations to retrieve prisoners of war throughout Southeast Asia; and conducted clandestine agent team activities and psychological operations.

The unit participated in most of the significant campaigns of the Vietnam War, including the Tonkin Gulf Incident which precipitated American involvement, Operation Steel Tiger, Operation Tiger Hound, the Tet Offensive, Operation Commando Hunt, the Cambodian Campaign, Operation Lam Son 719, and the Easter Offensive.

==================================================================
 
Re: Colt CIA?

Wow! Thats a ton of info, Thanks!!! I love stuff like this tied to history! :D

Now, the thing here in this case that wont help at all, is that the lower receiver has been altered to make it an "AR" and not an "M16" There arent any real markings to identify just when it was issued.
 
Re: Colt CIA?

Not sure that an optic on that weapon is the best choice, that one needs to stay just as it was
there are plenty of m4 style ars out there just looking for pounds of add on gear

just my .02
 
Re: Colt CIA?

LAZY EYED SNIPER said:
Rossignol said:
Only downsides would be that the A2 upper is fixed. I like irons, but no way that I know of to mount a sight if I would ever want to.

There should be a single hole through the top of the carry handle for mounting a rail or an optic. There are a ton of options out there. Here's an example...

Yea...that's how my red dot is attached to my M4...right on the carry handle via a picatinney rail.

556X45MM-2.jpg
 
Re: Colt CIA?

Shooter- you definitely know your history of the "conflict". I don't think "war" was ever declared by Congress, but plenty of our lives were changed there. To the best of my memory, the original M-16's were riddled with problems and never issued in quantity as the soldiers in 64-65 would not use them!
They preferred the M-14 as it was not subject to the jam problems. The gun simply could not take "operational use". After 1966 it was widely issued as many of the problems were corrected with better materials and manufacturing.

If you want a museum piece fine- but don't depend on it!
 
Re: Colt CIA?

The problems with the original M16's were caused by the "bean counters" or "Whiz Kids" under then Sec of Defense Robert Strange McNamara ( his real middle name )...and logistics was it's downfall.

McNamara ordered a halt to M14 production in January 1963, after receiving reports that M14 production was insufficient to meet the needs of the armed forces. McNamara had long been a proponent of weapons program consolidation among the armed services. At the time, the AR-15 was the only rifle that could fulfill a requirement of a "universal" infantry weapon for issue to all services.

McNamara ordered the weapon be adopted unmodified, in its current configuration, for immediate issue to all services, despite receiving reports noting several deficiencies with the M16 as a service rifle, including the lack of a chrome-lined bore and chamber, the 5.56 mm projectile's instability under arctic conditions, and the fact that large quantities of 5.56 mm ammunition required for immediate service were not available.

The root cause of the stoppages turned out to be a problem with the powder for the ammunition. In 1964 when the Army was informed that DuPont could not mass-produce the nitrocellulose-based powder to the specifications demanded by the M16, the Olin Mathieson Company provided a high-performance ball propellant of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. While the Olin WC 846 powder was capable of firing an M16 5.56 mm round at the desired 3,300 ft (1,000 m) per second, it had the unintended consequence of increasing the automatic rate of fire from 850 to 1000 rounds per minute. This would leave behind dirty residue, making the M16 more likely to have a stoppage. The problem was resolved by fitting the M16 with a buffer system, slowing the rate of fire back down to 650 to 850 rounds per minute and outfitting all newly produced M16s with an anti corrosive chrome-plated chamber.

On February 28, 1967, the XM16E1 was standardized as the M16A1. Major revisions to the design followed. The rifle was given a chrome-lined chamber (and later, the entire bore) to eliminate corrosion and stuck cartridges, and the rifle's recoil mechanism was re-designed to accommodate Army-issued 5.56 mm ammunition. Rifle cleaning tools and powder solvents/lubricants were issued. Intensive training programs in weapons cleaning were instituted, and a comic book style manual was circulated among the troops to demonstrate proper maintenance. The reliability problems of the M16 diminished quickly, although the rifle's reputation continued to suffer.

In addition, the Army insisted on the inclusion of a forward assist to help push the bolt into battery in the event that a cartridge failed to seat in the chamber through fouling or corrosion. Colt had argued the rifle was a self-cleaning design, requiring little or no maintenance. Colt, Eugene Stoner, and the U.S. Air Force believed that a forward assist needlessly complicated the rifle, adding about $4.50 to its procurement cost with no real benefit. As a result, the design was split into two variants: the Air Force's M16 without the forward assist, and for the other service branches, the XM16E1 with the forward assist.

In November 1963, McNamara approved the Army's order of 85,000 XM16E1s for jungle warfare operations; and to appease General LeMay, the Air Force was granted an order for another 19,000 M16s. Meanwhile, the Army carried out another project, the Small Arms Weapons Systems, on general infantry firearm needs in the immediate future. They recommended the immediate adoption of the weapon. Later that year the Air Force officially accepted their first batch as the United States Rifle, Caliber 5.56 mm, M16.

The Army immediately began to issue the XM16E1 to infantry units but the rifle was initially delivered without adequate cleaning supplies or instructions. When the M16 reached Vietnam with U.S. troops in March 1965, reports of stoppages in combat began to surface. Often times the gun suffered from a stoppage known as “failure to extract,” which meant that a spent cartridge case remained lodged in the chamber after a bullet flew out the muzzle. Although the M14 featured a chrome-lined barrel and chamber to resist corrosion in combat conditions, neither the bore nor the chamber of the M16/XM16E1 was chrome-lined. Several documented accounts of troops killed by enemy fire with inoperable rifles broken-down for cleaning eventually brought a Congressional investigation.
 
Re: Colt CIA?

I dont know where this particular "AR" falls in production years. What I do know which may help identify it is that it has the better/higher rate of twist for the heavier loads... dont know if that might mean anything to you Shooter?
 
Re: Colt CIA?

It looks sweet, I prefer simple AR and over done SG's. You know you could build a new one for that or less....not a Colt but my bff just built a super sweet YHM for around 8
 
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