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Less than Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.

GunnyGene said:
aksavanaman said:
GunnyGene said:
Bottom line is that you must look beyond just a gun in a safe, and consider the entirety of your defensive system.
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Spoken like a scholar, and the best advice I can think of! Rounds in your weapons will eventually run out (depending of course how much you've store :D ) Thats why castles were built with 20ft thick walls!
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Nope, not a scholar. Just taking a page from standard military doctrine I learned many years ago. You may have heard the phrase: "a cave is a grave." Well, a house is very much like a cave but more vulnerable. And US homes, in terms of typical suburban building practices, are among the most vulnerable in the world. We build for comfort and style, not security.
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When I tell people it takes 2 years to build a home in Germany they look at me all funny... but that's because they build houses out of cinderblocks and bricks... and build them to last several generations of families. I'd love to bring some of those building standards to the US.
 
aksavanaman said:
When I tell people it takes 2 years to build a home in Germany they look at me all funny... but that's because they build houses out of cinderblocks and bricks... and build them to last several generations of families. I'd love to bring some of those building standards to the US.
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You can build a custom home pretty much however you like, but it get's very expensive to build in security against intrusion or extreme weather. Upwards of $300/sqft.
 
It's the same way in the developed parts of the Middle East. Homes are made of poured concrete piers, concrete blocks, and bricks. They are built with style in mind, but they are like caves inside in the regard that they are way cooler than the outside air. We always talked about bringing crews over here to build. Heating and cooling would be cheap!
 
Well it took 8 months, but I finally convinced the wife to move the rubber buckshot from the tube to the side saddle. That way it is still there if she wants to scare of a critter or go all Joe Biden. Now its #4 buck, #4 buck, #4 buck, #4 buck and Hornady 1600fps 00 with Remington #1 on the rest of the side saddle.
 
Nice to see you back Nick! And I certainly approve of your choice of #4 as your primary load...

That being said, it's your home and your decision on how to best defend it.
 
8 months isn't to shabby to convince most wives of something. You could have tried reverse on her and insisted that she keep the rubber shot in there and that you forbid the buck shot. :lol:

Hopefully you'll never need to find out if it was the right call or not.
 
Nick Burkhardt said:
Well it took 8 months, but I finally convinced the wife to move the rubber buckshot from the tube to the side saddle. That way it is still there if she wants to scare of a critter or go all Joe Biden. Now its #4 buck, #4 buck, #4 buck, #4 buck and Hornady 1600fps 00 with Remington #1 on the rest of the side saddle.
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Just one opinion, but I think that is an excellent choice. Take care. Tom Worthington
 
Thanks. I was going to load the #1 buck in the tube, but for some reason it patterns much tighter than the #4 and the 00 buck. I can cover all 16 pellets with my fist at 20 feet and with my open hand at 30 feet. The #4 buck is goes from six inches to just over a foot wide at those distances giving me a bit of an aiming fudge factor.

There have been several break-ins a few blocks away in the ritzier part of the neighborhood this month. Guys in a white van wait till 8:30am when you are at work, then kick in the back door and clean out your house. I think that is what pushed her over since she is at home with our 3 year old in the mornings.
 
its come full circle, 7 pages wow......no such thing as a quiet little town any more
 
Sounds like it would be worth doing something to shore up your doors too, Nick. Maybe a bar or even just reinforced door jams. Last thing you want is for her to have to pull that trigger. Well, maybe not the last thing, but I'm sure you'd rather she didn't have to do it at all. Take care. Tom Worthington
 
A easy and inexpensive extra security measure is to install a sliding dead bolt on the top of the door.
Unlike a regular dead bolt the BG can't kick the top of the door. Not saying it's fool proof, but it gives you a heads up. Also lock any kind of storm doors you have.
 

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Great door Tom. That's what I mean about giving you a heads up. While the BG is trying to get through that door,,,,you can grab your HD gun.
 
My back patio door is an Anderson. But nearly identical, with the same 3 lock setup. I had to go look an find the manufacture after seeing that
 
Shoten Armory works very closely with citizens and law enforcement when it comes to solid and realistic tactical training. Lose the word 'tactical' and replace it with 'practical' and at least half of the war stories and fantasy over-dressed HD shotgun stories will take a well-deserved back seat. There are many new shooters out there today who need solid firearms grounding first and foremost. Replacing the cost of valued training, ammunition, targets and of course focused range time with over accessorizing an HD shotgun is a joke. Keep the HD Shotgun as basic as possible. The ONLY justification for discharging a shotgun or other firearm at a human being is when you have a reasonable man's belief that you and your family is in the gravest extreme of danger and are facing an armed intruder or it is an issue of disparity of force. So, when it gets to that point, you are looking for a one shot stop. LTL rounds are negligible in this area and an armed intruder running on crack/PCP won't even feel it. Law enforcement has recorded hundreds of cases where chemically fortified offenders has taken multiple rounds from a .45, .357 and 9mm hollowpoint and still kept coming. You cannot count on a LTL round for stopping power. You maintain an HD Shotgun to protect yourself and your family in a deadly force encounter, right? Shoot to stop. Shoot to end the encounter. Some say slugs and some say 00 Buck and some maintain birdshot (#6) at less than six feet will get it done. Your choice. Your circumstances.
 
Shoten Tactical said:
Shoten Armory works very closely with citizens and law enforcement when it comes to solid and realistic tactical training. Lose the word 'tactical' and replace it with 'practical' and at least half of the war stories and fantasy over-dressed HD shotgun stories will take a well-deserved back seat. There are many new shooters out there today who need solid firearms grounding first and foremost. Replacing the cost of valued training, ammunition, targets and of course focused range time with over accessorizing an HD shotgun is a joke. Keep the HD Shotgun as basic as possible. The ONLY justification for discharging a shotgun or other firearm at a human being is when you have a reasonable man's belief that you and your family is in the gravest extreme of danger and are facing an armed intruder or it is an issue of disparity of force. So, when it gets to that point, you are looking for a one shot stop. LTL rounds are negligible in this area and an armed intruder running on crack/PCP won't even feel it. Law enforcement has recorded hundreds of cases where chemically fortified offenders has taken multiple rounds from a .45, .357 and 9mm hollowpoint and still kept coming. You cannot count on a LTL round for stopping power. You maintain an HD Shotgun to protect yourself and your family in a deadly force encounter, right? Shoot to stop. Shoot to end the encounter. Some say slugs and some say 00 Buck and some maintain birdshot (#6) at less than six feet will get it done. Your choice. Your circumstances.
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That's all true, however city folks (which includes housing developments in the burbs) who live in close proximity to their neighbors with only a few sheets of chipboard/sheetrock and glass between them (or maybe a exterior brick facade), have the difficult decision of using a stopper vs. a maybe slow 'em down or scare 'em some.

Those of us lucky enough to have a house out in the boonies, with no neighbors within a 1/4mile, don't have to worry about injuring their neighbors. And we have the capability for defense in depth via various alarms, etc. that provide some warning before a visitor kicks in the door.

I have a lot of sympathy for those that legitimately worry about it. I used to be in that situation, so I know what it's like. Add to that the higher probability of a break in, and slow police response, and it's no wonder people stress out. There is no easy solution.
 
Forgive me if this has been stated already, ( didn't read all 9 pages).

In today's society, you'll also have to be prepared to explain it to a jury. I can see a prosecutor going after you. They would paint a not so favorable picture. Why if you used a min lethal round, did you shoot again? They will twist it 6 ways from Sunday. This may sound far fetched, but look at what goes on In our courts. It could be a good shoot all day long, but one thing could get you behind bars. To many rounds fired, why did you reload,why did you have a trigger job , why did you have a side saddle on your shot gun? You must be a gun but that was just looking to kill someone.

It could raise the doubt that you had the situation under control after hitting the perp with a rubber bullet. Why did you have to shoot again? Why did you not have only rubber bullets loaded?

It's sad we even have to think about things like this.

Personally, I'm not going to play around. I'm going to neutralize the threat. ( anyone in my house after hours uninvited). I've told my wife, once you've identified the threat, unload what you've got. Reload, get to a safe place and dial 911. Don't take any chances. It's just not worth it. I could go on, but I think you've got my point.


We practice and talk about home safety drills. Everyone has to have their own plan. It's not a one size fits all.


Rubber bullets are a lot of fun on the range by the way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
GunnyGene said:
That's all true, however city folks (which includes housing developments in the burbs) who live in close proximity to their neighbors with only a few sheets of chipboard/sheetrock and glass between them (or maybe a exterior brick facade), have the difficult decision of using a stopper vs. a maybe slow 'em down or scare 'em some.

Those of us lucky enough to have a house out in the boonies, with no neighbors within a 1/4mile, don't have to worry about injuring their neighbors. And we have the capability for defense in depth via various alarms, etc. that provide some warning before a visitor kicks in the door.

I have a lot of sympathy for those that legitimately worry about it. I used to be in that situation, so I know what it's like. Add to that the higher probability of a break in, and slow police response, and it's no wonder people stress out. There is no easy solution.
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The Shoten Armory Tactical Support Office is located in Baltimore, Maryland which qualifies as a big dangerous city in the eyes of most people especially law enforcement. So, we are well acquainted with the issue. My position (which is supported by legal precedent) and the laws involving justifiable lethal force still stands. We work closely with law enforcement in Baltimore and are acutely familiar and aware of the situation. None of that justifies the discharge of a firearm for the purpose of scaring them or slowing them down. Those who view this situation from the outside looking in have the luxury of contemplating LTL rounds. Anyone who really has been directly involved in a deadly force encounter and has used a firearm to defend themselves knows that even lethal methods don't always produce a one shot stop. In a deadly force encounter, you become subject to auditory exclusion which means for the most part your body shuts down the hearing and refocuses on vision and other senses which means there is a good chance you really won't know how many rounds were fired or by whom. An LTL round produces at best Blunt Force Trauma (typical when shot by a lethal round while wearing a vest). It might knock you down but you will get up. If you locate at the physics determining stopping power, the the equality would knock down the shooter as well as the target if Newton's Laws of Physics apply. In reality, big city situations involving breakins are most often perpetrated by addicts and users who may or may not be armed. They more than likely will be under the influence which means they won't even feel the LTL round at all. We can understand the need for this discussion and the reasoning behind it and it is always good for a family to discuss and lay out their defense strategies together. The fact law enforcement may be slow to arrive is all the more reason to lose the LTL rounds. There is far too much conjecture and supposition in this very area of home defense which is usually promoted by those whom have never been there or interviewing those who have. The bottom line is very simple. IF you choose to maintain a firearm for home defense, keep it simple and keep it practical. You are not a Navy S.E.A.L. so forget the house search. CQB is not your strong point and even if it was, once you have contacted LE, you put the ball in their court which means when they do show up answering an armed intruder call and they see you (the man with the gun), you become the immediate focus. If they call to you and you turn to locate the source, your gun barrel swings with you in a high stress situation. Now, what is a cop gonna do in a home invasion call with a known armed intruder when he or she is looking right at your gun barrel? Breakin? Make those plans beforehand. Pick a safe room with an available cell phone (in case they nullified your landline) and call 911. Give location, situation and location again and stay on the line. Account for every person in that safe room including you with your shotgun. Stay there. With all family member accounted for in safe room and the door is kicked in, make sure it is not LE respondents before pulling the trigger. Massad Ayoob, Director of Lethal Force Institute and globally recognized expert on the subject will tell you the exact same thing. If you have to discharge a firearm, you are doing so for the ONLY purpose of ending a deadly force encounter..
 
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