I know the difference between persecute and prosecute. I had to look in the dictionary to find the spelling for persecute. Its just a discussion, and being new to firearms, I thought it best to play the devil's advocate to bring out all the ifs, ands, and buts. Now suppose the individual whose home was invaded was older and in relatively poor health. By the time he figured out their intent and what means they had at their disposal, it could be way too late.
Less than Lethal shotgun shell for the first round.
- Thread starter Nick Burkhardt
- Start date
In most castle doctrine states... you still go to jail for that night, get arrainged and then go to grand jury to see if your action was justified based on the circumstances. If not... going to face a murder charge in court.
Somebody died that day/night.... so somebody is going to jail.
Legal fees are going to be significant as well as emotional stress and possible PTSD.
Somebody died that day/night.... so somebody is going to jail.
Legal fees are going to be significant as well as emotional stress and possible PTSD.
dorangolv
.270 WIN
If I hear breaking glass,
My dog is barking like mad,
Gunshot, dog no longer barking.
My wife an kids will be upstairs. I'll be waiting at the top of the stairs. If he(or they) starts up the stairs, I start shooting.
They demonstrated the willingness to:
1. Break into a home.
2. Use a firearm to kill an occupant of that home.
3. Demonstrated the intent to further search the home by venturing upstairs.
When he entered the home he decided someone was going to die.
I will make the determination as to who that will be.
(Hint: Not me, my wife, My 2 sons or my daughter.)
If they get past me, there are still two more guns upstairs with people ready to use them.
First thing is to call 911 and make sure the operator is hearing everything you say to the perp. Give her a running dialogue of all that has happened up to the point you called. Give them warnings, make sure the operator knows that using the firearm was truly a last resort to protect you and your family.
Prosecutors don't think in terms of "Good guy" vs "Bad guy."
They see the "Alive guy" had a gun.
Period.
They proceed to build their case from there.
The object of a court trial is not to find the truth, it is to win.
Sadly. :x
This is the reason why I have considered using Less Lethal rounds.
http://litfld.com/wp/?page_id=10
My dog is barking like mad,
Gunshot, dog no longer barking.
My wife an kids will be upstairs. I'll be waiting at the top of the stairs. If he(or they) starts up the stairs, I start shooting.
They demonstrated the willingness to:
1. Break into a home.
2. Use a firearm to kill an occupant of that home.
3. Demonstrated the intent to further search the home by venturing upstairs.
When he entered the home he decided someone was going to die.
I will make the determination as to who that will be.
(Hint: Not me, my wife, My 2 sons or my daughter.)
If they get past me, there are still two more guns upstairs with people ready to use them.
First thing is to call 911 and make sure the operator is hearing everything you say to the perp. Give her a running dialogue of all that has happened up to the point you called. Give them warnings, make sure the operator knows that using the firearm was truly a last resort to protect you and your family.
Prosecutors don't think in terms of "Good guy" vs "Bad guy."
They see the "Alive guy" had a gun.
Period.
They proceed to build their case from there.
The object of a court trial is not to find the truth, it is to win.
Sadly. :x
This is the reason why I have considered using Less Lethal rounds.
http://litfld.com/wp/?page_id=10
What weaponry to use for home/personal defense is absolutely a personal choice, and I won't criticize anyone for their choices.
But, I take my guidance from my ancestors ( the below illustrates the common choice in the early 1600's - The last couple lines on each page ):
But, I take my guidance from my ancestors ( the below illustrates the common choice in the early 1600's - The last couple lines on each page ):
When I bought my 590, it was for home defense ... defending life and property. I hadn't given it a whole lot of thought other than I'm getting older and swinging a baseball bat would no longer be adequate defense in this day and age. I should have known that the perpetrator would have more rights than the victim of a home invasion.
If I heard glass breaking or the door being kicked in, the first thing I'd do is make a run for the shotgun. Being frightened, I'm not sure I'd think of using the phone to dial 911. I'm not much of a phone user but I'll have to try to remember to do that if the need arises.
Thanks for all the input. There is certainly more to it than I had thought. I guess I was naive.
If I heard glass breaking or the door being kicked in, the first thing I'd do is make a run for the shotgun. Being frightened, I'm not sure I'd think of using the phone to dial 911. I'm not much of a phone user but I'll have to try to remember to do that if the need arises.
Thanks for all the input. There is certainly more to it than I had thought. I guess I was naive.
Vagen,
I suggest reviewing the self defense laws within your state.
Defending life is one thing.. defending property may lead to some legal issues.
Example:
NY is a strict Castle Doctrine state. Which means I have a duty to retreat in all circumstances except INSIDE my home.
Which means I can not use deadly force unless the aggressor physically enters my home. And even then I have to prove that I had fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.
If he brandishes a firearm outside my home and I take that as a threat and shoot him from my window and he dies on my lawn.... I go to jail for life.
If he comes in, I present a firearm and he leaves.... and I fire as he is fleeing.... I go to jail.
The only time I can fire legally outside my home is if I had no avenue to retreat and I am outside.... They are committing arson upon my home..... or a rape or felony against another person is being committed and deadly force is required to stop the act.
In every case I discharge my firearm in a self defense act I will be cuffed and brought in. At that point you need to shut up and lawyer up and watch thousands of dollars leave your bank account...
In essence the premise of the self defense is to stop the threat. And it gets very murky on when you have stopped the threat to where you now become the aggressor in the confrontation.
If possible I suggest you take a defensive shotgun course where they go over application as well as legal consequences.
I suggest reviewing the self defense laws within your state.
Defending life is one thing.. defending property may lead to some legal issues.
Example:
NY is a strict Castle Doctrine state. Which means I have a duty to retreat in all circumstances except INSIDE my home.
Which means I can not use deadly force unless the aggressor physically enters my home. And even then I have to prove that I had fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.
If he brandishes a firearm outside my home and I take that as a threat and shoot him from my window and he dies on my lawn.... I go to jail for life.
If he comes in, I present a firearm and he leaves.... and I fire as he is fleeing.... I go to jail.
The only time I can fire legally outside my home is if I had no avenue to retreat and I am outside.... They are committing arson upon my home..... or a rape or felony against another person is being committed and deadly force is required to stop the act.
In every case I discharge my firearm in a self defense act I will be cuffed and brought in. At that point you need to shut up and lawyer up and watch thousands of dollars leave your bank account...
In essence the premise of the self defense is to stop the threat. And it gets very murky on when you have stopped the threat to where you now become the aggressor in the confrontation.
If possible I suggest you take a defensive shotgun course where they go over application as well as legal consequences.
Nick Burkhardt
.270 WIN
MikeD said:
Water Monkey said:
Another reason to use rubber buckshot in grey area situations, such as subduing drunks in your kitchen at 2AM http://www.abc-7.com/story/23101293/neighbor-shot-hospitalized-after-forced-entry#.Ugg_c22AkWd
Nick Burkhardt said:
Kind of hard to determine the situation at 2am if someone is in your kitchen are you going to ask them if they are drunk or there to commit a burglary?
And.... kinda an important to note that when police use non-lethal capabilities.... they usually have some back up with them.
Self Defense - its a fickle beast.
I feel the debate here I just keeps going in circles.
It's always much easier to see things in hindsight. If you find someone in your kitchen that is high or determined enough, a non-lethal round may have little to no effect (in all honestly a lethal round my have a less than desirable effects). The human body is capable of ungodly feats if the individual is motivated enough, there is no fear and/or the pain sensors are diminished.
I hope none of us here ever have to test any of these rounds lethal or otherwise in a real life scenario.
It's always much easier to see things in hindsight. If you find someone in your kitchen that is high or determined enough, a non-lethal round may have little to no effect (in all honestly a lethal round my have a less than desirable effects). The human body is capable of ungodly feats if the individual is motivated enough, there is no fear and/or the pain sensors are diminished.
I hope none of us here ever have to test any of these rounds lethal or otherwise in a real life scenario.
oli700 said:
They say that home is where the heart is. However for a while back in the mid '60's in a far off land, home was where my butt was. Wasn't much - basically a big pile of sandbags, but I defended it with the most lethal weapons & ammo I could lay my hands on.
Some of our HD then.
And others.
Nice home defense variety you had there Gunny. Are we now starting the non lethal grenade versus the real thing debate? 
Tom396
.30-06
"...Deputies said they believe Miller was intoxicated when he allegedly kicked down Mike's door..."
Hello. This drunken "neighbor" kicked down the door and entered at 2 AM?! I would not use this example in a case for a non-lethal first round. Sounds like a lethal round is exactly what was called for. :shock: A non-lethal round might have just made him mad(der).
It does make a case for better doors. Take care. Tom Worthington
Hello. This drunken "neighbor" kicked down the door and entered at 2 AM?! I would not use this example in a case for a non-lethal first round. Sounds like a lethal round is exactly what was called for. :shock: A non-lethal round might have just made him mad(der).
It does make a case for better doors. Take care. Tom Worthington
carbinemike said:Nice home defense variety you had there Gunny. Are we now starting the non lethal grenade versus the real thing debate?
Nah. Just hinting at a couple points.
1. The circumstances should dictate the armament.
2. If you can't get your weaponry warmed up before the opposition gets within arms reach, odds are you're gonna loose. This means alarms, etc. that give you sufficient time to wake up and get your act together. If you have to dig it out of a safe, load it, etc. that adds considerable reaction time, which your defense perimeter must take account of. Very few people even have a simple thing like a driveway alarm.
3. Apartments, condo's, suburban developments, etc. are very hard, if not impossible, to set up advance warning for, so you've got to have bars on the doors and windows, strong exterior walls, etc. to delay entry as long as possible. Dogs are also good, but not always reliable and perhaps not permitted.
Bottom line is that you must look beyond just a gun in a safe, and consider the entirety of your defensive system.
Great points all Gunny.
Kodiak
.270 WIN
I found this blog a few weeks ago. I believe some of the info may be thought provoking. The Thinking Gunfighter
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 4
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 4
Kodiak said:
Pretty good article, but I'd like to know where I can get those "Superdeadly Rhinothumper Thunderzap rounds".
All kidding aside, Buffalo Bore (for example ) hot loads do have a legit hunting use. So if I'm going after big hogs, I very well might have my .41 mag Ruger loaded with 230gr Keith. If I happen to be accosted by a bad guy during, or going to or from, the hunt too bad for him. Ditto Brenneke or other slugs in my 12 gage Mariner. Old axiom: You go to battle with the weapons you have, not the ones you wish you had.
That said, I don't carry either gun to the grocery store - at least not yet.
GunnyGene said:
Spoken like a scholar, and the best advice I can think of! Rounds in your weapons will eventually run out (depending of course how much you've store
) Thats why castles were built with 20ft thick walls!
aksavanaman said:GunnyGene said:
Spoken like a scholar, and the best advice I can think of! Rounds in your weapons will eventually run out (depending of course how much you've store
Nope, not a scholar. Just taking a page from standard military doctrine I learned many years ago. You may have heard the phrase: "a cave is a grave." Well, a house is very much like a cave but more vulnerable. And US homes, in terms of typical suburban building practices, are among the most vulnerable in the world. We build for comfort and style, not security.